WP150 | Being Willing to Grow Your Practice with Zack Ufland, LMFT
I can’t wait for you to meet my friend Zack Ufland in today’s episode!
Zack and his wife, Amanda, run Paradigm Therapy in Raleigh, NC, and their story is such a beautiful example of how faith and community can shape the way we grow our practices—and our families.
What I love most about this conversation is Zack’s heart for being willing—willing to take risks, willing to listen to God’s direction, and willing to step into community even when it feels scary. We talk about everything from merging practices with your spouse, to the hard parts of hiring, to how God shows up in unexpected ways when you’re building a business.
If you’ve ever wrestled with the challenges of group practice ownership or wondered how to integrate your faith more deeply into your work, you’re going to be encouraged by Zack’s story.
From Solo to Group Practice
Like many therapists, Zack started in solo practice. Within just over a year, he had filled his caseload and was at a crossroads: continue on his own, or expand. Under Whitney’s coaching and through the Wise Practice community, Zack and Amanda took the leap into group practice.
That leap didn’t come without challenges. Hiring, training, and navigating the growing pains of leadership pushed them to depend more deeply on their faith and on the support of their community. “I feel safest when I’m surrounded,” Zack shares. Surrounding himself with wise counsel, spiritual encouragement, and practical support gave him the courage to move forward.
The Power of Willingness
If there’s one theme that stands out in Zack’s journey, it’s his willingness.
Willingness to reach out to a new community.
Willingness to take risks with time, money, and energy.
Willingness to let go of control and allow others—his wife, his team, his mentors—to step into their strengths.
As Zack put it: “I feel like I’ve saved years of mistakes through coaching and community.”
For him, willingness is a posture of humility—remaining open to new opportunities, guidance, and even redirection when things don’t go as planned.
Faith at the Center
Running a practice is never just about business. For Zack and Amanda, faith is woven through every decision. From praying over new hires to trusting God when candidates didn’t work out, they’ve seen God’s hand in the details of their journey.
Whitney also shared a personal story of feeling prompted during her quiet time to post a simple job ad in a local Facebook group. That nudge led to finding the perfect new intake staff member—proof of how listening to the Holy Spirit in business can make all the difference.
Marriage, Family, and Business
Working with a spouse adds another layer of complexity to running a practice. For Zack and Amanda, learning to clearly define their roles has been key. “At first, we were both saying different things to the same employee—it was chaotic,” Zack laughs. Over time, they’ve discovered how to balance responsibilities, support each other’s strengths, and embrace the reality that the practice is, in many ways, a family business.
Even with challenges, Zack finds joy in leading with his wife: “What a blessing it is to have someone alongside you to work through those problems.”
Lessons for Practice Owners
Zack’s story highlights some powerful takeaways for anyone building a faith-based practice:
Embrace willingness. Growth requires risk. Be open to trying, failing, and trying again.
Lean on the community. Surround yourself with people who will challenge, support, and guide you.
Listen to God’s leading. Sometimes the smallest prompt can open the biggest doors.
Define roles in partnership. Whether with a spouse or a team, clarity is key to avoiding chaos.
Stay humble. You don’t have to be perfect to lead well.
Final Encouragement
If you’re standing where Zack once stood—debating whether to step into group practice—let his story encourage you. Faith and community make the journey not only possible but deeply rewarding. As Zack reminds us: “Rest in God’s protection that no matter what happens, it will be okay. You can be flexible to change.”
Show Sponsor Practice at Scale
Today’s episode is made possible by Practice at Scale, your strategic and done-for-you growth partner if you're ready to grow your group therapy practice with confidence.
Unlike agencies that throw cookie-cutter solutions at you, Practice at Scale works alongside you like an extension of your team. From SEO and Google Ads to operations systems and website updates, they take care of it so you can focus on what matters most: your clients and your life.
Want to know what’s working and what’s holding you back with practice growth? Get your free marketing and website analysis now at practiceatscale.co/wise-analysis.
Zack Ufland’s Resources
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[00:00:00] Whitney Owens: Today's episode is made possible by practice at scale. You're strategic and done for you growth partner. If you're ready to grow your group therapy practice with competence. Unlike agencies that throw cookie cutter solutions at you, practice at scale works alongside you, like an extension of your team from SEO and Google Ads to operation systems and website updates.
They take care of it so you can focus on what matters most your clients and your life. Wanna know what's working and what's holding you back with practice growth. Get your free marketing and website analysis at practice at scale.co/wise-analysis. That's practice at scale.co/wise-analysis. Hi, I'm Whitney Owens.
I'm a group practice owner and faith-based practice consultant and I'm here to tell you that you can have it all. Wanna grow your practice, wanna grow your faith? Wanna enjoy your life outside of work, you've come to the right place. Each week on the Wise Practice Podcast, I will give you the action steps to have a successful faith-based practice while also having a good time.
Now let's get started.
[00:01:10] Jingle: Wish Grosso practice. She don't play. She does business with a twist of faith. It's Whitney Owen and Wise Practice Podcast, Whitney Owen and Wise Practice Podcast.
[00:01:28] Whitney Owens: Hello friends, and thanks for being with me on The Wise Practice Podcast. It means so much to me that you take the time to listen.
If you're so inclined, please take a moment to write a review before, after, whenever, when you're just sitting around. I am excited for you to meet Zach today, and I've known Zach for a little bit now, and he is running a group practice out of Riley, North Carolina. And has so much to share, not just on business, but on life and on God, and the way he integrates his faith and how he runs his business and how it helps him with his family and the way he leads them and the connections that he's made.
So we cover a lot of different things here today, but isn't that what life is? Running a business, understanding family, finding God, and all those things. So you're gonna learn a lot just from listening to Zach. Um, before we do that, though. There is still time for you to get a ticket to the Wise Practice Summit.
We are now at the one month mark and I cannot wait to be in person at this event. So if you're new to the podcast or new to the community, lemme give you a little snippet. The Wise Practice Summit this year is gonna be in Greenville, South Carolina, October 9th through the 11th. We do this event every year to be together in person, in community.
We meet online throughout the year, but this is the one time that we save our time, energy, money. We put it aside and we come together. So I'm looking forward to that. You can earn up to 10.5 CEEs at the event, and it's all talks that are revolving around faith and building our private practices. We will have sponsors there that offer marketing, finance, coaching different people for you to pick their brains, learn more about their services, and they offer special deals to people at the summit.
And of course. I will be there to give you a big hug and welcome you along with the rest of the Wise Practice team. So we are thrilled about this upcoming event. If you have questions, feel free to just email me and ask, and you can check everything out on the website wise practice consulting.com, hit the summit tab and thing.
Another thing I wanted to share with you before we got going, I was, I was thinking about faith in growing our practices and obviously that's what Zach and I talk about on the podcast today. There's something so important though, to be said for someone can give us all the things, right? You might have a coach or you've got a check guide, or you've got whatever that says, Hey, I want you to do this, this, this, and this, and you will get to where you need to be.
Y'all. Life does not always work like that. Our practices don't always work like that, or we try the same thing multiple times and all of a sudden it works, right? Most people would say that's insanity, but sometimes it will. And the other day I was, I was feeling a little down. Gonna be real because we've really been struggling to hire another intake person.
We have one, but the phones have more need than what one person can accomplish. And so we had been praying, we had had one person we interviewed who had accepted the job and then came back three weeks later before the training and turned it down. So we were back to square one. We had another person we interviewed that just seemed perfect.
And then she just ghosted us after the interview. You know what I'm saying? And then the, then I was sitting there and I was like, you know what? I really feel like I should post this again in a Facebook group. And I had a very specific local group A, it's not therapist, it's just a group. And I just kind of felt that tug on my heart during my quiet time.
And I was like, all right, I'm gonna try this. So I am. I went online and it was nothing special. It was just a regular post. No pretty image of words. Hey, we're looking to hire someone to answer phones that are busy business. If you're interested, please DM me. I got lots of dms. It was great. And then I had a friend who texted me personally and said, my friend is interested.
Those are the best y'all. And it was actually someone that I had met before in the community years ago, thought the world of. And yeah, she ended up coming in for an interview and accepting the job. We are thrilled. We'll be training her, um, actually the week before this podcast goes live. But I say that to say, listen to the Holy Spirit.
Listen to what you might feel pushing you in a certain direction, because sometimes that's the very thing you need to do. And we talk about that in this episode. Being willing, being willing to do things that sometimes might not make full sense. That might be a risky investment. It could be your money, but it could be your time.
It could be your energy, and sometimes those are the very things that take you forward in some amazing ways. And so I am glad that Zach can share that with you, share his experience with you, and you can see how God has used his willingness and his wife says they work together to help them get where they are today.
So sit back. Relax, take notes, or maybe just enjoy your walk while you listen to this episode with Zach Upland about being willing and letting God show up and do the work.
Welcome back to The Wise Practice Podcast, and today I have my friend Zach. Upland on the show. He is the co-founder of Paradigm Therapy in Riley, North Carolina, where, and his wife lead a group practice with five team members. Paradigm Therapy specialized in working with couples, children, and adults with autism and child therapy.
Their practice has been supported in shape through the wise practice community with both circle and one-on-one coaching. Well, thank you, Zach, for that intro there.
[00:07:17] Zack Ufland: Yeah. Thank you so much. Sounded great.
[00:07:19] Whitney Owens: Alright, wonderful. Um, well, Zach, when I think about you, I can't not think about Guardians of the Galaxy.
[00:07:27] Zack Ufland: That's right. It was, uh, when did we learn, I think I was talking to your husband when we met in person and he said, Hey, we're gonna be, I said, what, what do you guys have planned for the summer? And he said, oh, we're actually gonna be in Disney World. I said, oh, we have a Disney World trip coming up. And we figured out we'd be at be there at the same time.
And that was, that was early into the coaching, wasn't it?
[00:07:48] Whitney Owens: Yes. And the same park at the same day, so
[00:07:51] Zack Ufland: Yes,
[00:07:52] Whitney Owens: yes. Yeah. So yeah. So I, I think of you with Guardian the Galaxy and with the Guardians of the Galaxy music, which we will enjoy at the summit. So there you go.
[00:08:02] Zack Ufland: That's our parameters for, for knowing what a good playlist is for, for the summit.
[00:08:06] Whitney Owens: That's right. That's right. Well, why don't you just share a little bit about yourself and about your practice, kind of when it started, and a little bit about your family, just people get to know you.
[00:08:17] Zack Ufland: Yeah, absolutely. So I am in Raleigh, North Carolina with my wife. We have a daughter is two and a half years old, one on the way.
So it's a very busy life stage for us. We've been in the area for. Probably over over 10 years now. Paradigm Therapy started in 2022 in November of 2022. And funny you know this Whitney, but your listeners don't that my wife is also a marriage and family therapist. We have different specialties, but. We actually had two separate practices going on at the same time.
And earlier this year, under your guidance, we decided to merge those practices because it is hard enough running one business, let alone two. Hmm. So we have, uh, have had the vision of providing really good, specialized premium care in Raleigh. And wanting to provide a different out-of-network experience.
And so we are early in our growth. We just hired two employees. One is brand new and one we've been working with for a couple months. And we are just continuing to grow and, and trying to figure out what God has planned for us and for the business.
[00:09:29] Whitney Owens: Wonderful. And, and remind us, when did you start the practice Paradigm?
[00:09:34] Zack Ufland: Paradigm started in November of 2022, I
[00:09:38] Whitney Owens: believe. Okay.
[00:09:39] Zack Ufland: 2023. I'm kind of getting my dates mixed out, but it's been a couple years. I do know that.
[00:09:44] Whitney Owens: I know I do the same thing. Especially around the years of 21 through 23. Those all kind of mingle.
[00:09:50] Zack Ufland: Exactly. Post COVID.
[00:09:52] Whitney Owens: So you went from solo to group practicing Less than two years.
Two years? Mm-hmm. Something like that. Okay.
[00:10:01] Zack Ufland: Well, well really, I was solo for. About a year and a half where I felt like, okay, we, I've been able to maintain a full caseload. I felt good, and I'm sure we'll get into this, but me and you just happened to meet through a, a, a mutual connection. And since we started working together, I've gone from a solo to a group practice in less than a year, so Right.
Uh, on paper it looks like we've been doing this for a while, but. Group practice is a relatively new thing for us, which is really exciting.
[00:10:37] Whitney Owens: Well, thank you. Yeah, we will share that story. I also wanna just point out, it's hard to start a practice. It's hard, and you went and got a full caseload and under a year and a half to the point where you're ready to start hiring therapists.
So what has been kind of the, the magic there? Like what was, what allowed you and, and your cash pay? So, and you charge premium rates.
[00:11:02] Zack Ufland: Yeah. So I would say I, there's a couple different components I feel, and I'm gonna use a therapy term here. I feel safest when I'm surrounded. Okay. And so the more people that I had on my team, the more I felt like.
Well, um, talk for me and my wife, the more we felt like our blind spots were covered. And there's a lot of mistakes that, that people made. And I, I knew that I was surrounded well, both personally, spiritually, and from a business perspective. Um, and I had my faith where I knew that, you know. That the Lord was gonna protect us, it was gonna protect our business.
It might look different than how I envision it, but I knew that we would be okay. And so really it, it involved us taking the risk and saying, okay, we know that God has given us a gift and we have a desire to. Look out for others who also want to grow. And so we felt like we could do it and so we, we took that risk.
Although it is really hard. I mean, as, as you mentioned, it's, I'll never forget, this is probably our second coaching session. Whitney, you said. Zach, I just wanna let you know that in this stage of growing, it's really hard. Most people say that it's tough and I will also forget what I told you, and I'm eating my words, I said.
Whitney, it can't be that bad, so. So I don't say that to discourage. It's been amazing and I've loved every second of it, but it's been challenging.
[00:12:49] Whitney Owens: Mm. Yeah. And I like what you said, you feel safest within community. How did you say it?
[00:12:55] Zack Ufland: I feel safest when I'm surrounded.
[00:12:59] Whitney Owens: When I'm surrounded. I love that. Yeah.
In a good way. Go and, and I, yeah. And I think that really speaks to the importa of community, but also. Biblical community, you know, and, and the way the Bible teaches us, the way we comfort one another, help one another. And obviously I'm all about some community. So let's, let's go back because I think this is a great example of what we're talking about, how God brings connection in community in crazy ways or ways.
We expect lots of ways. When you originally reached out, wait, you originally reached out to me about consulting, right? You filled out an application. Oh, you were supposed to. You were supposed to actually have a call with Amy.
[00:13:40] Zack Ufland: That's correct. So Uhhuh, let me go back one half step back. Yeah. Answer a previous question you said, and that'll lead into this, the thing that has helped us grow.
If I could boil it down to one word, it is willingness. Hmm. And I think that to answer and to, to give insight into the community sense, I had thought in my own wisdom, I need to do X, Y, and Z to grow the business. This was prior to us meeting. Mm-hmm. And so I was willing to explore those options. So I met one indivi individual that you know, was telling him about Google ads and he said, Hey, you know, I hear that you are in a wanting to grow group practice, and.
You know, you come from a faith-based background. I know this community that's led by Whitney. You really should reach out to them. And he left it at that. But if I didn't have the willingness to say, Hey, this sounds really good. I need to really explore this. I had no idea who you were, right? Never heard of it.
I, I'm kicking myself now for not knowing about you sooner and the willingness to jump on a call. The willingness to be flexible because, you know, I wasn't able to be on the phone call with Amy, led to me and you the willingness to invest in our coaching that I've told you from the beginning. I feel like I've saved, you know, years of mistakes through the coaching and also the the wise practice community.
I mean, yeah, that's kind of the short and sweet of it.
[00:15:18] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Well, I appreciate you saying that. 'cause I would say the same thing as a consultant and growing my own practice. It's that risk taking. It kind of goes along with willingness. Like, I'm willing to make some hard choices. I'm willing to put some things on the line.
Now, do I sometimes put money on the line and I look back and I lost it? You know, like yes. Mm-hmm. But like, you'll never grow if you don't take risk. Every risk has some positives and negatives. You just, you just never know how something's gonna turn out. But when it turns out really great, it's totally amazing.
[00:15:50] Zack Ufland: Exactly. And I, I heard this from a family member who also is grows different businesses, and he said, you want to be ahead of your skis, but not so far that you're falling over and. What I think the community that I've surrounded myself has done is helped me to gauge what that looks like and also to make sure that I'm going down the right side of the mountain and not off the cliff.
[00:16:18] Whitney Owens: Mm.
[00:16:18] Zack Ufland: Because I mean, our, our wisdom is and our perspective is so limited.
[00:16:23] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Totally. Alright, so, um. So this person referred you to Wise Practice, fill out the application and, and again, like you were supposed to talk to somebody else that didn't work out. And I just think God has a way of like ordaining things.
And then, and then we got on a call, which I was not anticipating telling you that I was gonna work with you. In fact, I wasn't taking on consulting clients at that time. I'm pretty sure. Um, I tried, I'm very limited. But there was something about your story. And I also, and you can relate to this in our work with clients, like we listen to the Holy Spirit.
Mm-hmm. You know, when we're working with people, and for me, the Holy Spirit speaks through my gut a lot. Um, and so listening and saying, okay, God, what do you, what do you want here? What are you asking for? And so I remember being on that call with you, just trying to get some information about your practice, helping give you some direction, and just really sensing, okay, Whitney, this is, this is the direction you need to go in.
Mm-hmm.
[00:17:20] Zack Ufland: Absolutely. And. After that call, I, me and Amanda talked and I, and I told her, I said, we have to figure out how to do this because within our vision, I know that this community can help us get there quicker than we could on our own, right. If we, you know, that's, you know, God gives us community not just to support, but to offer wisdom.
And if I can learn from your mistakes and get a head start, why? Why wouldn't I do that?
[00:17:50] Whitney Owens: That's right. That's right. Hey, and I've done the same with other people and I still learn from the people I do consulting with. Or just the other day we had a wise practice call and somebody was like, oh, here's this cool thing that I started doing in my practice.
And I was like, I've never thought of that. And I went, I went downstairs to my, uh, clinical manager and I was like, Hey, why don't we do this? It was so funny. He goes, Whitney. I've basically been saying that for like four years, and he was like, every time I've ever brought it up, you've really turned down that idea.
And I was like, oh, that's funny. Well, now it's a great idea,
[00:18:27] Zack Ufland: you know that. I'm gonna kind of go on a tangent here for just a second. That reminds me of something that we've kind of talked about in our coaching that has been life changing for me. I obviously respect you because you are, you know. A couple different stages ahead of me in business and that's what I wanna shoot for.
And I didn't realize until we started working together and I experienced your, not just willingness, but humility with making decisions that might go great, that might not go well with hiring, that I didn't realize how much pressure I was putting on myself to be perfect. That was. Sucking out all direction or action that I could have taken.
And so as I'm hearing you say that, you're learning all the time, it just reminds me of what has been so helpful leaning on this community as the reminder of I don't have to be perfect to lead and to grow a thriving group practice.
[00:19:31] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Mm. In fact, the more you try to be perfect, the worse it'll be.
[00:19:36] Zack Ufland: Absolutely. And then, you know, and I, I, I've seen this in other therapy practices. If pride is at the focus and you're not willing to be humble, then you start to push out all perspectives from the top to the bottom. And then people don't wanna work there 'cause they can feel that.
[00:19:56] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. So what do you feel like has given you the drive to keep going when you've wanted to give up on your practice that could be solo or growing your group practice?
[00:20:07] Zack Ufland: That's a great question. I think there's a couple different things, both professional, spiritual, and personal. This is a career change for me. So when I was in college, I studied chemistry, and so going to seminary and getting a. Therapy degree was something that I truly felt was a calling. It really didn't make sense in the context.
I spent a lot of hours getting that chemistry degree. It was very difficult. You can, you can hear the regret in my voice. So I truly believe this is a calling. This is my, this is my dream job. And I had always wanted to do some sort of business aspect of, of, have a business aspect of a profession. Um, so I am within the cross hairs of what it, what my dreams truly are.
So that's one aspect. The other aspect is I truly feel like this is where God has called me to be. I really try to have an open hand between where I want to go and where I feel like God wants me to go. Mm-hmm. And constantly asking myself, you know, Zach, I know you feel like you want to be. A very large group practice, but maybe the Lord doesn't have that for you, and are you okay with that?
The third, uh, answer to that question is the duty of taking care of my family. And, you know, we have a lot of things that I'm sure a bunch of your listeners struggle with, like student debt and wanting to provide more for our kids than, you know, what the previous generation, the generation before them provided.
And so. That also is what keeps me going.
[00:21:52] Whitney Owens: Hmm. Well those are obviously admirable things.
[00:21:56] Zack Ufland: Thank you. They, they give me a lot of, a lot of drive.
[00:21:59] Whitney Owens: Yeah, definitely. So, and what, what kind of inspired you to start a group practice? Like I know that some of those things you just said, but you could have kept making money as a solo practice owner.
That's a
[00:22:10] Zack Ufland: great question. I love the idea. I always have of, I love the idea of creating an experience, not just for clients obviously, but also for clinicians and me being in, in a group practice and hearing others experience. Some experiences are greater than others, and there is a i, I love the idea of taking.
My role seriously as being a business owner where I am mutually responsible for someone else's livelihood that gives me excitement. And so I, in a, from a perspective of humility, truly feel that Amanda and I are heart is in the right place. And so we love the idea of clinicians growing underneath our direction.
Mm-hmm. And so we just, I, I just love. The idea of being in community constantly. It's lonely as a solo group practice owner, I think.
[00:23:19] Whitney Owens: Yes, it is. Yeah, it is. And I always am reminding myself, gosh, I get the honor of picking the people that I get to work with, you know? Well said. That's really fun. And yeah, you're not supposed to be besties with your workies, but you know, I can't help it.
[00:23:36] Zack Ufland: Exactly, exactly.
[00:23:37] Whitney Owens: So you also have this unique dynamic of working with your spouse. And a lot of practices do this, especially faith-based practices, you know, the Christian perspective. So I would love for you to share a little bit about that experience with people, especially if somebody's, you know, when you were in your situation and we were doing our consult, I was like, why are y'all not just working together and growing a practice together?
And it was like, oh, you know, so there might be some people out there that are like, should my spouse work with me? And that could be phones or it could be clinical or whatever like. I asked a lot of questions. I'll just let you talk now.
[00:24:14] Zack Ufland: Yeah. Lot of thoughts there. I'll try to keep them simple. So I can't turn off my therapy brain.
Right. And I specialize in couples, so when you ask me that question, I'm thinking of it from a couple's perspective. Mm-hmm. And it's gonna be different for all couples. But I also think you cannot get away from the reality that as a business owner it, it becomes your. Child, it's your baby and it is a family thing.
In my opinion, you can't, it's not as easily separated as it would be if you were just a, an employee. And we have to work, we have to work with boundaries, which is, which is great. And I think some couples will be able to handle different levels of involvement than others.
[00:25:01] Jingle: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:02] Zack Ufland: So I think some couples will be able to be true co-owners and co-founders and do different roles well, and o other couples.
That's just not gonna be a, a good dynamic for them. Mm-hmm. For us, Amanda and I both have very strong personalities. She's a lot more laid back than I am, but we're both have, both have strong personalities, which I love. We have, and I think this was part of what gave us confidence that we could do this together, is us having our own individual practices initially really allowed us to see, hey, we were able to do this individually and offer insight and direction.
Why wouldn't we team up? And this is something that you encouraged me throughout our coaching, which is Zach. There are things. That you don't like to do that it sounds like Amanda would love to do. You need to let go. And the freedom of me letting go in particular areas and the freedom, Amanda, my wife has experienced and saying, Zach, I don't want to do that, but you love to.
I'm gonna let that go, has been amazing. And I say that from like the depth of my soul. So is it scary? Of course, because being in marriage is already hard and then you add a business on top. But the freedom and the, the teamwork and the community, we call it now, it's a family run business and that, that just feels really good.
That's really cute. Did that answer your question at all?
[00:26:48] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I liked what you said that basically like. The business is gonna be a part of your family if you like it or not, so you might as well embrace it. I was just laughing 'cause I'm sure my husband feels like he co-owns this thing with me.
Right,
[00:27:04] Zack Ufland: exactly.
[00:27:05] Whitney Owens: He knows all the players, he knows all the things. Um, and even when I was in grad school, he used to work at the grad school as a advise, not an advisor. He was a recruiter, so his office was like around the corner from my classroom and he would always say, oh, I can take the CE and pass it just like you.
So I'm sure he
[00:27:25] Zack Ufland: could, he's a smart guy.
[00:27:26] Whitney Owens: Yes. Well, thank you. But yeah, uh, it does become where you're really both in it anyway, so you might as well find ways to do it together in a way that's, that's helpful. Um, what would you say are some of the challenges that you face working with your spouse?
[00:27:42] Zack Ufland: I think the challenge is, number one, making sure that the roles are very clearly stated.
Yeah, because we started to notice when we first, when we hired our first employee, that there was too much overlap. Meaning I would go to the employee and say one thing, and then Amanda would go to her and say one thing, and we're like, okay, this is becoming chaotic. Let's just kind of fine tune some things.
Let's create a designated role. For instance, happened yesterday. I said, you know, the, the employee said, Hey, I'm having some of these billing issues. I'm trying to. Bring our new employee through orientation, and that's where Amanda gently and lovingly said, Zach, I got, I got it. I'll focus on this side of the business.
We'll obviously have meetings to discuss it. You focus and do your best on this side, like what a blessing is it to have someone alongside you to work through those problems. It's, it's tough. I'm, I don't wanna, you know, paint a false picture. The other thing that's difficult is the different visions, uh, of where we see the practice going.
But that's just like any discussion and marriage and negotiation and leaning on one another's perspectives and wisdoms just like you would in any other community, and seeing the value in it, saying, okay, we, Amanda has a very good perspective. I have. A phenomenal perspective. Just kidding. And ultimately, we're gonna get to where we need to go.
[00:29:23] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. I love that. I'm ki I'm kinda laughing because I also like I'm on this other side thinking about the people I work with. I start to feel married to them.
[00:29:34] Jingle: Hmm.
[00:29:37] Whitney Owens: In fact, uh, Lisa and I like now travel together 'cause she helps with wise practice. And so we will, this is so funny. We'll go to a restaurant and I'll be like, what are you eating?
And she like, what are you eating? And I'll be like, can we like, get things that we both want and split 'em? And so that's what we do, like a married couple. So, so we make jokes as if we act like a married couple, even though we work together. Um, so it's kind of the opposite idea, but it's just kind of funny.
[00:30:03] Zack Ufland: Well, and I don't know if you're similar to me, but the idea of going on those work trips alone without having someone to be there with you to help think through all your blind spots and different things just sounds so lonely. So it. The idea of that just sounds so exciting and fulfilling.
[00:30:21] Whitney Owens: Yeah, and, and I have done some traveling alone.
Um, but I definitely think it's a lot more fun to have someone that you work with and enjoy. And of course for you, you get to do it with your spouse, which is even better. So that's, that's definitely something special. Um, well, we've talked about a variety of things today. Is there anything that you wanted to make sure we hit on that we haven't talked about yet?
[00:30:43] Zack Ufland: I don't think so. I, you know, when thinking about this podcast, I think the one thing that I just wanted to make sure that comes across is that the people who listen, who are in the stage before me, you know, I'm, I'm still relatively new and growing the group practice, but for those, for your listeners who either are currently in a group practice that.
They really feel like God is calling them to start a group practice or they're a solo practice and they feel like they're being called to grow. I would just encourage you to lean on your community and pull on those strings with willingness and it, because it's amazing what the wisdom that is in God's community and.
Rest in God's protection that no matter what happens, it will be okay and you could be flexible to change it.
[00:31:37] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Definitely. Well, I appreciate you taking the time to come on the show. It's been enjoyable and I've enjoyed like kind of the variety of conversation because this is what practice is. It's finding our way and finding God and figuring out where he's moving and just joining in that.
So thank you again for being on the show.
[00:31:57] Zack Ufland: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:32:01] Jingle: So click on follow and leave a review. Keep on loving this work we do with Whitney Owens and Wise Practice Podcast, Whitney Owens and Wise Practice Podcast.
[00:32:19] Whitney Owens: Special thanks to Marty Altman for the music in this podcast. The Wise Practice Podcast is part of the Site Craft Podcast Network. A collaboration of independent podcasters focused on helping people live more meaningful and productive lives.
To learn more about the other amazing podcasts in the network, head on over to site craft network.com. The Wise Practice podcast represents the opinions of Whitney Owens and her guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only, and the content should not be taken as legal advice. If you have legal questions, please consult an attorney.
