WP174 | Making Space for the Sacred in Your Practice with Jordan Raynor
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Running a successful practice can slowly crowd out the very faith that called you to this work in the first place.
In this episode of the Wise Practice Podcast, I sit down with Jordan Raynor to talk about how to make space for the sacred in your practice without adding more to your plate. We explore what it looks like to shift from working for God to working with God, and how that simple change can transform the way you lead, care for clients, and experience your work.
This conversation felt especially timely during the Lenten season, a time that invites reflection, awareness, and slowing down even in the middle of a busy practice. Rather than focusing on doing more, this episode centers on noticing God’s presence in the work you’re already doing.
Jordan and I also talk about the importance of community for faith-based practice owners, the role of vulnerability in leadership, and why sustainable work requires rest, connection, and play.
If you’ve been feeling stretched thin or disconnected from your faith in your work, this episode offers a grounding reminder that you don’t have to carry it all alone.
Making Space for the Sacred in the Work We Already Do
This conversation felt especially fitting for this Lent season. We’ve been talking a lot lately about slowing down, paying attention, and noticing God in the middle of our work as practice owners. Not adding more spiritual tasks to our plates, but becoming more aware of how God is already present in what we’re doing every day.
As practice owners, it’s easy to rush past this season. We’re busy. We’re responsible for clients, teams, schedules, payroll, and everything else that comes with running a practice. Lent gently interrupts that pace and invites us into reflection rather than productivity. Noticing rather than striving.
Sacred Work Does Not Require a Sacred Label
One of the most grounding reminders from this conversation was Jordan’s perspective that there is no such thing as a truly secular space for believers. If the Spirit of God dwells within us, then everywhere we show up is already sacred.
That means our therapy offices, Zoom rooms, session notes, and staff meetings are not neutral ground. God is already there. The question isn’t how to bring God into our work. The question is how aware we are of His presence while we work.
Working With God Instead of For God
A moment that really stayed with me was when Jordan shared that he no longer thinks about his work as something he does for God, but something he does with God. That subtle shift changes everything.
Working for God can quietly turn into pressure. It can feel like performance, obligation, or spiritualized productivity. Working with God invites companionship, presence, and trust. It allows us to show up honestly instead of trying to prove something with our work.
You Do Not Have to Lead With Faith to Be Led by God
This is especially important for therapists. We often sit with clients who do not share our faith, and we can feel tension around what it means to honor God without being explicit about God.
Jordan’s reminder was simple and freeing. You don’t have to lead with faith if you are being led by God. The love, care, attunement, integrity, and steadiness you bring into the room already reflect Him. People experience the aroma of Christ through how we listen, how we hold space, and how we treat them with dignity.
Awareness Changes the Way We Practice
So much of this conversation centered on awareness. Not doing more, but noticing more. Noticing God’s presence in the room. Noticing how we schedule sessions. Noticing how we lead our teams. Noticing how we respond when we feel insecure, overwhelmed, or unsure.
Awareness shifts our posture. It allows us to pause instead of rushing. It invites prayer into the in-between moments of the day, not just the quiet times we schedule.
Small Reminders Can Anchor Us Throughout the Day
I loved how practical this part of the conversation was. Jordan shared how physical reminders help him stay aware of God’s presence during his workday. A sign in his office reminding him that he is already beloved. A simple note in the kitchen prompting prayer during ordinary moments.
These small practices aren’t about discipline for discipline’s sake. They’re about grounding ourselves in truth so that our identity doesn’t get wrapped up in productivity or outcomes.
Security in Christ Changes How We Lead
When we truly believe that we are secure in Christ, our work stops being the place we go to earn worth or validation. We no longer need success to save us.
That security actually creates more freedom, not less ambition. We can take wise risks. We can try new things. We can lead boldly without fear of ultimate failure because our identity is already settled.
Vulnerability Grows as Leadership Grows
This was such an important reminder for practice owners. The more responsibility you carry, the more vulnerable you need to become in the right spaces.
Leadership doesn’t mean having fewer insecurities. Often, it means being more aware of them. The security we have in Christ allows us to admit what we don’t know, where we’re struggling, and where we need help without being undone by it.
Community Is Not Optional for the Long Haul
This conversation kept circling back to the community. Not just church community, though that matters deeply. But a vocational community with people who understand both your faith and your work.
Practice ownership can be isolating. Therapists give emotionally all day long, and that can lead to loneliness and burnout if we don’t have spaces where we are also seen, known, and supported.
Finding People Who Get Your Faith and Your Work
Jordan spoke so honestly about the impact of being in a long-term community with other faith-driven leaders. People who can challenge you spiritually and practically. People who understand the pressures of leadership and the desire to honor God through business.
These groups don’t have to be formal or expensive. They can start with a few trusted people who love God, understand your work, and are willing to show up consistently.
Why In-Person Connection Changes Everything
There is something about gathering in person that deepens trust in a way virtual spaces can’t fully replicate. Shared meals, unhurried conversations, storytelling, laughter, and presence all contribute to a level of connection that sustains us long-term.
I’ve seen this firsthand in my own life and work. When practice owners gather together intentionally, it often shifts not just their businesses, but their sense of calling and clarity moving forward.
Rest, Play, and Sleep Are Part of Faithfulness
This was such an important closing reminder. Therapists are exhausted. Practice owners are tired. And burnout does not mean you lack faith.
Rest is not selfish when the goal is to love others well over the long haul. Sleep, Sabbath, and play are not luxuries. They are rhythms that allow us to keep showing up with presence and compassion.
This Season Is an Invitation, Not a Test
Lent is not about doing it perfectly. It’s an invitation to notice. To slow down. To make space for God in the work we’re already doing.
If this season has felt rushed or half-finished, there is still time. God is not keeping score. He is present, patient, and already at work in your practice.
A Conversation Worth Sitting With
This conversation with Jordan reminded me why this work matters and why we cannot separate our faith from the way we lead, serve, and show up. The sacred is not something we add later. It’s already woven into our work when we are willing to notice it.
If you’re craving more depth, more grounding, and more connection between your faith and your practice, I hope this episode feels like an exhale and an invitation to keep listening for God right where you are.
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[00:00:00] Whitney Owens: This episode is sponsored by Berries. Berries is an AI assistant trusted with over 10,000 mental health clinicians. It helps therapists save eight to 10 hours a week by writing personalized progress notes in seconds generating ICD 10 codes, treatment plans, patient letters and session prep highlights.
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Varies is exactly what you need. You can try it for free using the link in the show notes or use the Code Wise Practice Podcast to get 50% off your first month. Hi, I'm Whitney Owens. I'm a group practice owner and faith-based practice consultant and I'm here to tell you that you can have it all. Wanna grow your practice, wanna grow your faith?
Wanna enjoy your life outside of work, you've come to the right place. Each week on the Wise Practice Podcast, I will give you the action steps to have a successful faith-based practice while also having a good time. Now let's get started.
[00:01:23] Jingle: Where she grows your practice and she don't play. She does business with a twist of faith.
It's Whitney Owen and Wise Practice Podcast. Whitney Owen and Wise Practice Podcast.
[00:01:41] Whitney Owens: Welcome back to the Wise Practice Podcast. This is episode 1 74. Making space for the sacred in your practice. This was such a fun conversation and inspiring today, and so I'm excited to bring this to you. And this conversation I had with Jordan Raynor is so fitting for this time that we're in this Linton season.
So if you've been listening to the show the past few weeks, we've been talking about the lint season, what it is, how to engage in it, how to make space for it in your practice, so it's a season of reflection and paying attention. So if you're curious more about Lent, how to practice that as a practice owner.
I encourage you to go back and listen to those episodes. 'cause oftentimes we overlook this season because we're so busy with our everyday work as practice owners. So lint is inviting us into increased awareness, not just doing more, but noticing how we're doing it and incorporating God, really noticing God more in the work we do.
So in today's episode, Jordan Rainer and I talk about what it means to bring God into the sacred work we do. Not by adding pressure or to-dos, but more just awareness of God's presence and how that impacts the way that we work with clients, the way we lead our teams and the way we experience our work.
At one moment in the interview that I just wanna point out that meant so much to me is when Jordan shared that he doesn't think of himself as doing work for God, but with God. That simple shift of being with God is so impactful. We also, in this episode, talk about community and the importance of not just going to church for community, which is great, but finding a community that is about your faith and your work.
As he was sharing this important part in the interview, I was just consistently reminded of the Wise practice community and how special it is that we meet every week on Zoom and have this ability to connect with one another in our faith. And in our work and understand ourselves on that level. So in the episode we talk about how to find that community.
I wanna encourage you that if you're listening to it and you're thinking about community, please check out the Wise Practice Membership community, or just reach out to me. I'm happy to connect you with other practice owners. Because we need each other in this work We do not only for the business side, but for the faith and spiritual side, and that's what wise practice is all about.
So I was excited to be able to jump into those topics with Jordan. This conversation also pairs well with the Lent season and the devotional book that I just had that came out the practice of Becoming, which is specifically written for faith-based practice owners about slowing down and making space for God.
So if this Linton season, you're looking for a way to continue to engage in that way, I encourage you to grab the book. You can head to Amazon to get that. I know that we're a little into the Lin season, but you still have time to be able to make the most of it, and so I encourage you to consider that as we listen to today's episode.
So I'm excited to be able to introduce you to Jordan. So let's dive on in.
Hello friends and welcome back to The Wise Practice Podcast. I'm looking forward to our interview today with Jordan Raynor. He is the leading voice of faith and work movement through his bestselling books, five Mere Christians. The sacredness of secular work Redeeming your Time, the Creator in You and more.
He's a keynote speaker. Devotionals Jordan has helped millions of Christians in every country on Earth connect the gospel to their work. In addition to his writing and speaking, Jordan serves as the executive chairman of Threshold 360, a venture-backed tech startup, which he previously ran as the CEO, following a stream of successful ventures of his own.
Jordan has twice been selected as a Google fellow and served in the White House under President George W. Bush, a sixth generation Floridian. Jordan lives in Tampa with his wife and their three young daughters. Welcome to the show, Jordan.
[00:05:51] Jordan Raynor: Hey Whitney. Thanks for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
[00:05:54] Whitney Owens: Yeah, well, I love getting to know people on a personal level.
So you got three girls. What are their ages?
[00:06:00] Jordan Raynor: Oh man, I got three little girls, 11, nine and six. We adopted our youngest at birth six years ago.
[00:06:10] Whitney Owens: Oh, wow. Well, we talked about our connection to Chris Thayer when we started. Yeah. So there's another connection you have with him.
[00:06:16] Jordan Raynor: Yeah, exactly. Shout out to Chris the, he's the listening.
Yeah. Big wise practice fan. Yeah, love. Love him. So we, we love adoption. I think it's one of the best pictures that the gospel we can give to a watch in world. And yeah, we're a part of our a church community along with our mutual friend Chris Thaer, who believes strongly in foster care and adoption care.
And yeah, we love it. We love these little girls that we're getting to raise.
[00:06:38] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Well that, that's beautiful. Well, I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. Even though we have so many books and topics we could discuss, we decided to kind of talk about. How to integrate faith into the secular work we do.
And I, I, I just love that you just gave an example of here's how we live out the gospel through adoption. Like, like how do we live the gospel through our work? So I guess before we go into that, I, I'm just kind of sitting here thinking, we love your feedback, I mean, about therapists, you know, it's like we see therapy as our mission vision, but also secular faith.
It's kinda a weird bag there.
[00:07:11] Jordan Raynor: Hmm. Yeah, man, I, I, I would argue therapy's one of the most. Sacred spaces you can occupy. And, you know, let's let, let's define some terms. I think our therapist will appreciate this, right? The word secular literally means without God. But our listeners, from what I understand, believe that the Holy Spirit is literally with them every single place that they go.
So there's no such thing, even if you're not articulating Jesus' name in the room. There's no such thing as a secular space for you. Everywhere you go is sacred. The only thing you have to do to make a secular practice, a secular school, a secular workplace, sacred, is walk through the front door, log on a zoom.
That's it, right? And so I think the more interesting thing is, okay, knowing that it is sacred, knowing that God is with me in this place, what now? Right? How do I reveal Jesus's goodness and kingship? Sometimes in explicit ways, but most of the time, not in the way that I love patients, in the way that we schedule appointments, in the way that our yes is, yes in all the things big and small.
How do we reveal the character of the God of beauty and love and order and man, I think therapists have a unique. Way of doing this because you're taking disordered thoughts, disordered feelings, giving language to it, reflecting back and bringing order to somebody's spirit and soul. Not, not, not in a way that only God can do, but it's a, it's a, it's a pretty special relationship that therapist has with their patients.
I've gone to therapy quite a few times throughout my life, and I am very grateful for the deeply sacred work of your profession. Again, whether you're using Jesus' name or not, with Christian and non-Christian patients, you're doing the work of the Lord.
[00:09:03] Whitney Owens: Yeah, you're, you're reminding me of an experience in grad school.
I went to a school called Richmont, which formerly was PSI. So it was a program that we took theology courses, integrated faith in our classes. One of my professors, he said a client came in. This was David Benner. I'm not sure if you're familiar with him. He's got lots of great Christian writing. A client comes in and says, I don't want any of that Christianity stuff.
I don't want you praying for me. I don't want you talking about it. And he was like, okay. And he said, but of course I prayed for them. And of course the spirit was there. And of course God did the work. That kind of exactly what you're talking about.
[00:09:37] Jordan Raynor: Amen. Yeah. I think a lot of us think that in order for our work to be sacred and God honorary that we have to lead with our faith.
You don't. Have to lead with God if you are being led by God, right? Hmm. Jesus wasn't terribly explicit about his ministry. A lot of the times. I mean, shoot, for 80% of his adult life, he was in total obscurity, swinging a hammer, working a regular JOB as a carpenter or a stone mason, however you want to interpret that verse.
So man, you don't have to always lead with God as long as you are being led by God. People can smell the aroma of Christ in the way that you listen to them. The way that you love them and the way that you show genuine care for them beyond what they can do for you, that's palpable and powerful.
[00:10:23] Whitney Owens: Yeah. I love, I love kind of going back to this.
I think we get lost, or at least I do, I start doing the things, getting in the business and I like forget that that's who I am. Right. And that's what I bring. I Do you have any like, thoughts, tips, surrounding, how do we. Remind ourselves maybe. Maybe be more aware of the presence of God with us.
[00:10:44] Jordan Raynor: Hmm. Oh man, that's a great, great question.
And I'll be honest, it's taken me a long time to get to a place where I feel like I'm doing this relatively well day in, day out. You know, for years I would have my quote unquote quiet time in the morning and close my Bible, finish my prayers, and then kind of. Off with my day and functionally forget about God and neglect God the rest of the day.
I was working for God, I was not working with God in any sort of intentional way. And lemme give a couple of practical things that have been very, very helpful to me. Number one, I put a sign about 20 feet away from my desk. Uh, my, my eye doctor has been telling me for years, Hey Jordan, if you're staring at a computer all day, you gotta look away 20 feet every 20 minutes for 20 seconds and stare at something.
The 20 20 20 rule. So I've taken this as an excuse to put a sign on my door. It's a Hebrew rendering, a song of Solomon two 16, which says, my beloved is mind and I am his. And roughly every 20 minutes, I look 20 feet away and I look at that sign for 20 seconds to remind me. That I am already a beloved child of God, regardless of any sort of impact I'm having in front of my computer.
And so every 20 minutes, it's a reminder of Gods presence, but more than that, a reminder of his love, irrespective of my productivity, and that allows me to approach my work in a radically different way. So that's one practical thing that's helped. The second is in my kitchen. I work from home. I just put this like stupid, simple, sticky note on my refrigerator that just says pray.
Because before you know, I would go down to the kitchen during my breaks to make a cup of coffee or make lunch, and I'd be tempted to scroll through my phone or respond to text messages. Now I am much more likely to keep my phone in my pocket and just commune with the. Talk to him about what just happened during this interview I had with Whitney.
Right? Maybe pray for Whitney when I go downstairs after this. Pray about what's coming up. So those are, those are two like really practical physical triggers that lead me to what I call planned prayer. Uh, prompted prayer throughout the day, right? We're use the planned prayer in the mornings when we're at our Bibles.
I think we all need more prompted prayers throughout the day and those two physical triggers. Help me, remind me of God's presence. Invite me into prayer and remind me of his love for me, regardless of what's happening at my desk.
[00:13:05] Whitney Owens: Mm. I love those. And, and any therapist could put that in their office, you know?
Totally. Something. Totally. I mean, I usually have something kind of over my clients, so, 'cause that's where I'm looking at my clients look up and be like, oh yeah, the Lord is with me or this means something. You know, to me, I also am really into candles. Might be good or bad in the office space, I don't know.
But it reminds me of the Holy Spirit. So when I come to work that candle and I say, Lord, you are with me in this space and this candle reminds me of your presence. So that, I find that really helpful, especially sitting with people when it becomes difficult when I'm like, I don't know what I'm gonna say.
Yeah. I don't know what to give, but the Holy Spirit does, so
[00:13:44] Jordan Raynor: I love that. That's a beautiful, that's a beautiful reminder. I, I might steal that. That's good.
[00:13:48] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Well, you said something that I wanted to ask more about. You were like, when I look at the Beloved and he is mine, it had radically changed your work.
Yeah.
[00:13:56] Jordan Raynor: Yeah.
[00:13:57] Whitney Owens: Tell me more about that.
[00:13:58] Jordan Raynor: Oh, yeah, man, I, I think, listen, if you're listen to this podcast, I'm sure you're declaring with your mouth that Jesus Lord, just as I am, but functionally. It's easy to look to our work to save us, right? Mm-hmm. Because if we, if we can't be happy, if we can't have a sense of self, who I'm talking to therapists, you get this without success at work, then we got a problem Functionally, our saviors not Jesus, our savior is success in the workplace in a growing practice or more book sales, whatever.
And so. I have got to constantly preach the gospel to myself constantly, not, not just reading God's word in general, preaching the cross and reminding myself as I look at that son, that I'm a beloved child of God, not because of anything I've done. Not because of any books that I've sold, but because of what Christ has done for me on the cross.
Mm-hmm. And that is irrevocable. I am an adopted child of God, permanently secure with a permanent seat at God's table, and that allows me to approach the work. Not in a wild goose chase to get love, to find love, to find peace, but I can approach the work from a position, a secure position that I already have love, I already have joy, I already have peace, and I wanna do the work because I love my king.
And I want to reveal my kinks character through the work, but I don't have to get something from the work that God never designed the work to give me, because I have everything I could have and then some from the father through his son, Jesus Christ. And I, I actually think, ironically, that makes me more ambitious for my work.
Like, because I, I, I've heard people push back on this, but well, like, then, like, all your ambition goes away because you're already a child of God. I'm like, no, no, no, you don't get it. Like it's, it's the kid who. Whose basketball team is up 60 points. And is throwing himself on the floor to grab the ball in the fourth quarter, he's doing it, not because he's afraid he's gonna lose, he's doing it because he loves the coach.
Right. And when we are so filled up with the love of God, I think we're more ambitious for the work because working to earn somebody's favor. Is exhausting, right? Yeah. But working in response to unconditional and unmerited favor, namely the favor of God. I think that's the most intoxicating thing in the world, right?
Mm-hmm. It makes me wildly ambitious for the work God's called me to do.
[00:16:28] Whitney Owens: Yeah. And it makes it fun.
[00:16:31] Jordan Raynor: Yeah. Way more fun. Way more fun.
[00:16:34] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like imagining practice owners I've worked with, or even myself when I feel insecure. Maybe relationally with God or myself or with people or whatever, I'm way less likely to not only.
Not enjoy my work, but to take risks, right? Yes. And to have fun with it. But then when I like feel in tune with the spirit and I feel 'em through my gut, I'm like, yes. Like, God, we're doing this together and this can be fun. Like I think about when I bought my first building for my, my second location, I was like, this is scary.
But then it was so fun 'cause like I felt like God was like holding my hand along the way. Hey, here's what I want you to do. Here's the thing we're doing next. And that security meant so much.
[00:17:16] Jordan Raynor: Yeah. 'cause if we don't have that security. It's impossible to truly risk because you have everything to lose. You have relationship to lose.
And as believers, we feel like we have the ultimate relationship to lose through Christ. But once I under, once I understand that that relationship is perfectly secure, I have secure attachment to my heavenly Father. Oh man, I can go out there and take really, really, really big swings. Really big risks.
Wise risks, but risks knowing that at the end of the day, there's no such thing as ultimate failure, right? Because I have Christ.
[00:17:47] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the idea of kind of you, you're talking about you're working from home and the community aspect. I'm thinking about therapists who have their solo practice or you don't have other therapists around.
How do you experience the Holy Spirit and community in your life when you're working from home?
[00:18:04] Jordan Raynor: Man, that's a terrific question.
[00:18:06] Whitney Owens: Uhhuh,
[00:18:07] Jordan Raynor: it's stuff to do at home, right? I mean, I got my wife to go downstairs and chat with, but. This is why I, I think there's so much emphasis put on the local church as there should be.
I'm an elder in a local church. I love the local church all about it. And you're, you're, you're married to a local church pastor, correct. Whitney?
[00:18:25] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:25] Jordan Raynor: Yeah. But I think, I think we'd be wise to, in addition to our church community, have a separate community of believers who get us not just theologically, but also vocationally, right?
Mm-hmm. People who can challenge us. Not just on the fine points of scripture, but on strategy and whether or not every aspect of our business. Is under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Right? And so I, yeah, I work from home, but I ha I do have that community, right? I have a small group of 12 guys who are ambitious entrepreneurs, who we've been in community together for almost seven years.
Love Jesus, love building great businesses together. And I have been formed more into the image of Christ, number one, and number two, have grown more as an entrepreneur than I experienced, than almost anything else, right? And so, especially if you work alone. Especially if you work from home, especially if you're not seeing, you know, people throughout the day, man, you gotta find that community of people who get your walk with Jesus and get the work right to come alongside of you and commune with you on a regular basis.
[00:19:34] Whitney Owens: Hmm. You can see me like glowing while you're talking.
[00:19:38] Jordan Raynor: Yeah,
[00:19:39] Whitney Owens: I'm soaking in. I'm like thinking about, yeah. I love church. I love the people at church. I certainly can share my work with them, but they don't understand it. They
[00:19:49] Jordan Raynor: don't get it. Sweet. Miss Judy standing next to you. I love Miss Judy. Miss Judy's a real name, by the way.
I love Miss Judy. Miss Judy's one of my favorite people in our little local church, but Miss Judy doesn't get the grind. She doesn't understand. She's not in that phase of life. She's 80 years old. She's not going after it and trying to sell millions of books, right? So like I have so much to learn. I do learn from Miss Judy and Miss Catherine at our church of what it looks like to follow Jesus, right?
They're beautiful examples of following Christ. I need that. Right. And I also need examples of people following Christ in my specific vocational context so I could fully work out my faith in my vocational context. So it's not either or. I think it's both and,
[00:20:38] Whitney Owens: yeah. Well, I don't know if you experienced this, but especially as therapists.
Gosh, I just feel like I'm working all the time. You know, if I go to church, people know you're a therapist, they wanna ask you questions, and I need help with this. Or they're texting me later and, and that's my, that's my joy, my passion, my love. I'm serving God and helping people. Right. But at the same time, it gets really lonely.
[00:21:00] Jordan Raynor: Yes, yes.
[00:21:01] Whitney Owens: And it's exhausting.
[00:21:02] Jordan Raynor: Yes. Yeah. And that's not, we're made for, we're made for community. The first thing God said wasn't good. We're Adam to be alone, right? We need each other. And man, we just, and I don't think, listen, I think everybody knows this. I think we all desire this. We just get so in the weeds of our business that we don't take the time to look up and realize how burnt out we are without other people to hold our arms up in the air, right, to come alongside of us and help support us as we do the good work that God has prepared in advance for us to do.
[00:21:34] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Yes. And, and you know, that goes back to like that security in Christ allows us to be confident in our business so that we can make the time for this. I think so many what I see with practice owners is they're worried, they're scared, I need more clients. I gotta market, I gotta do the things. But then they don't go find community.
And so it like ex compounds the problem.
[00:21:57] Jordan Raynor: Totally. And not only does the security of Christ allow us to be confident, it also allows us to be vulnerable. And I think this is another reason why we're not in community more because we feel like we can't show up in the room and admit our failures. Right. But if I am a secure child of God, I truly have nothing to lose.
I can walk into the room and admit that I'm a bonehead and I don't know X, Y, and Z that I quote unquote should know about how to grow my business. I've got nothing to hide because God has seen all of my sin, all of my shortcomings, all of my shame, and that's when Christ died for me. Right? Man, when you really think about that.
Really dwell on that. Christ died for me. Knowing every sin I would commit when I was God's enemy, Romans five says, that's when he chose to go to the cross for me, now I can walk into any Roman and admit, yeah, guys, I don't know what I'm doing on marketing guys. I know that we are woefully behind in our ops and I'm really struggling here.
I need help. I can walk in that room and ask those questions because I have been freed. From the need to hide all of my sin and my shortcomings and my shame.
[00:23:05] Whitney Owens: Hmm. I, I love this, and I've been thinking about this a lot lately. This specific thing you're talking about and this idea that leaders. The more you grow in your leadership, the more you need to be vulnerable.
The more that you're gonna be challenged in your insecurities, the more you're gonna need God. I think a lot of people think, oh, well, when I get to this place, I'll feel great, or I'll have it together, I'll, no, actually, you're gonna feel like you have it less together the more you grow as a leader.
[00:23:32] Jordan Raynor: That's, that's exactly it.
The most successful people I know, quote unquote successful, and I'm talking about success by the world's standards and gods for that matter. Are the most humble people I know are the people who have more questions than they have answers. Right? And man, there's something to that. Like true mastery of any vocation requires tremendous humility, right?
But it's tough to cultivate that humility if I've got something ultimate to lose. But once that's something ultimate, a restored relationship with God is taken care of, I'm free. I'm free. Right. But, but again, like we forget this, we forget the identity we have. We forget that we have a permanent seat at God's table, which is why I keep coming back to the cross, which is why we have to preach the cross to ourselves all the time to free us.
It's what Tim Keller, I, ugh, book I read at least twice a year called The Freedom of Self Forgetfulness. Right? The cross is what enables that. The cross is what allows me to go into a room, forget myself, serve others, admit my shortcomings, right? And just. Just do the work. Right, because I, because I have everything in the ultimate through Jesus.
[00:24:45] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Recently I was in a meeting and I was like, oh, I'm really struggling with these things, you know, so I'm, I'm thinking about these things. I'm like, do I admit these things? Do I not admit these things? Where's this gonna put me in relationship with this person I'm admitting 'em to? And so I did.
I just sp it out and I was like, I feel insecure about this and this and this, and you know, me as a leader, blah, blah, blah. And then I went home and I was like, oh, no. Like, I just let it all out. I felt terrible. Like I felt so much shame. Embarrassment and I was like, okay, God, I don't know what to do with this.
Like, you're gonna have to help me here. And of course the next morning a podcast comes on about business leadership and about we have to shed our stuff and you need to be authentic with your team members and like, don't hold things back, what you're talking about. And I was like. All right. Alright. Like, this is actually what I was supposed to do, even though I felt so bad about it, and it's the very thing that brought me more freedom and is moving us forward.
[00:25:39] Jordan Raynor: Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's exactly right. God creates beauty through woundings, right? Mm-hmm. We gotta be honest about those wounds. We have to show those wounds in order to be healed in order to grow. Right. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I I love that. I love that you're thinking about this. And listen, there, there are times in spaces as leaders that don't make sense for us to be vulnerable.
My friend Andy Crouch, wrote a phenomenal book called Strong and Weak, about this idea mm-hmm. Of, you know, what, what are the forms of which I need to be strong, need to be confident, need to not hide my shortcomings, but not broadcast them. And what, what, what, where are the forms where I can be more transparent and as leaders?
It's tough to be totally transparent about our shortcomings with our direct reports and teams. It's why we need community with other people, other leaders in this context, other practice owners even, right to come alongside and be honest, because you can't be fully transparent about all those shortcomings with the people who are on your payroll.
[00:26:36] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and this was like the, my second in command, like Yeah. I was like, I to do this with you, but probably not anybody else.
[00:26:43] Jordan Raynor: Correct. Yeah. That makes sense. Right. I the same way with my, with my DPM market. Yeah. I could tell her stuff then. Can't tell the rest of the team. You gotta have those people inside the business.
Ideally. But even, I would argue outside the business, I think ideally you got somebody outside the business where you can have these conversations with.
[00:26:59] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Yeah. How, okay, so how did you find your group? Sounds like you kind have like a peer consultation kind of group. Someone who's listening might be like, yeah, I want that.
How do I find
[00:27:08] Jordan Raynor: it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen, there's so many people selling Mastermind products these days. You know, you just do a quick Google search. You can find one pretty quickly. I found mine, I found mine via my email list. I just started, I, I. I had a significant email list. I put out a call for people to apply to join this group that I was starting.
So I just started my own, and that's how I found that crew. But man, there's so many, there's so many groups like this out there. My friends at C 12 are doing this at a really, really big scale. We have my own community called the the Redeeming New York Time Mastermind that's currently sold out, but we have 36 people who are in that, who are in community together.
There's so many different options, but I would tell you, man, if you could do this for free, like just round up. Go find the three to five, three to 12 smartest, most serious followers of Jesus. You can who understand your vocation as specific as possible, but it doesn't, they don't have to all be therapist practice owners, right?
Like you, you, you could just go build a group of Christian entrepreneurs who understand how to build a business, right? And get community eat once a month. What workshop challenges within the business. Pray for each other. Be vulnerable with each other. Get to know each other's stories, right? That's one thing that's been really special about my group, man.
We know every detail, not every detail, but a lot of details of our lives from when we were kids until today. Like they've heard the ugliest stuff of my story of my life and they still love me and they're still there for me. I'm thinking about them as I'm here knowing that man, if anything came up on this podcast, I can go to my guys right now.
And get help and get prayer and get community. I carry that. Kurt Thompson talks about this way. You carry the community in your mind, right? Yeah. That community's always with me in my mind, wherever I go, and that's one of those powerful things anyone can have, especially a Jesus follower.
[00:28:59] Whitney Owens: Hmm. It's beautiful.
Do you, just curious, do you get together with them in person?
[00:29:03] Jordan Raynor: I do. We get together virtually once a month and in person twice a year, and I will say. That's when the group went to a different level of depth is when we started getting together in person twice a year. We were doing it for once a year for the first, I think two years, and for the last few years we've been doing twice a year and it's been a total game changer.
Total game changer that number one. And number two, I mentioned Kurt already. Kurt Thompson's confessional community model of the storytelling liturgy where where everybody goes around him. It takes 20 minutes to share their story and then have the rest of the group reflect back how hearing their story made them feel.
[00:29:50] Jingle: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:50] Jordan Raynor: We, we, we spent two days just doing this as a group and it, I mean, these, these guys are running companies with a thousand employees, like very expensive use of their time to spend two days doing this. It, it's one of the most valuable things I've ever been a part of, ever been a part of because the, the, the level of trust.
And man, just love for these brothers. I, I, I honestly have never seen anything like it. Like I'm tempted to like, oh, let's go, like, replicate these groups and sell it because man, we've like, you know, got lightning in a bottle here. But I, I, I, I, I, I don't think I could, I think God's just graciously given us something really, really special.
And, but hopefully what I shared here will help others go create their own special groups like this to help them go the distance and the good works God has for.
[00:30:38] Whitney Owens: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I actually created my own group, yeah. Five, six years ago.
[00:30:45] Jordan Raynor: Yeah.
[00:30:46] Whitney Owens: And was just like. I really like this guy. You know, he's doing some good business work.
Loves God. I wonder if we could start just talking about this stuff and then, yeah. There was another person I was like, I like her too. Maybe she comes. So we all had the, the commonality of our faith. We all had private practices and we all did consulting work on the side.
[00:31:04] Jordan Raynor: Yeah. So
[00:31:05] Whitney Owens: just like a couple years ago, we started getting more intentional about meeting in person.
Now we only do it once a year. Yeah. But boy, when you were talking about it, I was like, yeah, that's when the magic happens. Like when we were together and even looking back on my last year, it was us getting together that changed the trajectory of the last seven months of my practice and just changed everything for me personally.
[00:31:26] Jordan Raynor: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's so, so, so powerful. It's so powerful. I'm, I'm the biggest fan of this model.
[00:31:31] Jingle: It's a game changer.
[00:31:33] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Well, is there anything else that you would wanna say or that you think about as far as faith-based practice owners that they would wanna hear as therapists?
[00:31:42] Jordan Raynor: Man, there's so many different directions.
I could take this. You are doing the work of the Lord, and I know that the work of the Lord is exhausting, right? Exhausting. I can't imagine being a therapist. I would be exhausted emotionally, mentally, even physically sitting like that. Your body's tense all day. You will burn out if you do not have rhythms of rest in your life and self-care.
And I, gosh, I hate that term so much because the world has bastardized any sort of biblical idea of self-care. Here's the nuance I think is important for believers if the motive behind self-care. Is self sacrifice right and being in a position to better love my family and better love my patients over the long haul.
I think the Lord is honored by you taking time for self-care, specifically an eight hour sleep opportunity. I'm talking to scientists, right? It ain't six, it ain't seven and eight hours. Sleep opportunity every night. I would argue the biblical rhythm, not command, but Jesus rhythm of Sabbath, like rest weekly is wise for the long haul.
And then I would also add to this play, I'm learning that I used to think that the opposite of play was work, but Dr. Stewart Brown, MD Stewart Brown says the opposite of play is not work. The opposite of play is depression. Hmm. And without play. Inside or outside of your practice? I think there, there are likely projects and tasks within the practice that could feel playful to you.
And the simplest definition that is simply, you just lose track of time while you're doing the thing, right? But if you don't play, I don't think you're gonna go the distance. I think you're gonna crash. And so, man, that would be my charge to mental health professionals who I know are exhausted, especially over the last few years.
Take the time for self-care if your true ambition is self-sacrifice and pouring yourself out with more and more energy for the glory of God and the good of others.
[00:33:51] Whitney Owens: Hmm. Well I'm glad I asked that last question and, and I don't know if Chris had told you about this. I host a conference every year called the Wise Practice Summit.
[00:34:01] Jordan Raynor: Oh, cool.
[00:34:02] Whitney Owens: Yeah, Chris has actually spoken at it before, and as I'm hearing you talk like that is the whole reason I do it is 'cause therapists, we meet online every week through the Wise Practice community, but we need to be together. And then we go to a really cool hotel and some people get onto me, they're like, why do you pick such a nice place?
I'm like, 'cause therapists need it. They need to get away. Yes. Somewhere beautiful. Yes. But they need to have fun and we do fun stuff at the conference, and I always say that no wise practice event is complete without karaoke.
[00:34:33] Jordan Raynor: Okay. I have to ask then, what is Whitney singing to Karaoke?
[00:34:36] Whitney Owens: Oh, well, I have lots of songs.
I have 'em on my phone, but my number one signature song is Total Eclipse of the Heart.
[00:34:43] Jordan Raynor: Hey, well, great choice, solid choice, respect.
[00:34:47] Whitney Owens: Wonderful. Well, it's been a pleasure. I encourage listeners to check out all your books. You've got lots of great stuff. You talk about lots of more things outside of the sacredness of our work, but we really appreciate you taking the time to be on the show today.
This episode was brought to you by Berries, the AI assistant, helping clinicians save hours each week on documentation. Try it for free using the link in the show notes. The Code Wise Practice Podcast, all in caps to get 50% off your first month.
[00:35:23] Jingle: So click on follow and leave a review and keep on loving this work we do with Whitney Owens and The Wise Practice Podcast, oh, Whitney Owens and Wise Practice Podcast.
[00:35:41] Whitney Owens: Special thanks to Marty Altman for the music in this podcast. The Wise Practice Podcast is part of the Site Craft Podcast Network. A collaboration of independent podcasters focused on helping people live more meaningful and productive lives.
To learn more about the other amazing podcasts in the network, head on over to site craft network.com. The Wise Practice podcast represents the opinions of Whitney Owens and her guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only, and the content should not be taken as legal advice. If you have legal questions, please consult an attorney.
