WP161 | How Vicarious Trauma Impacts our Work with Jenny Hughes, PhD
As a therapist and group practice owner, I know firsthand how the work we do shapes us. The stories we hold, the crises we navigate, and even the simple act of showing up empathically day after day can impact our emotional and spiritual health. That ongoing impact is called vicarious trauma, and it plays a bigger role in our work—and our leadership—than we often acknowledge.
In this episode, I’m joined by Jenny Hughes, PhD, a licensed clinical psychologist who specializes in trauma and PTSD and supports helpers and healers through these exact experiences. Jenny offers such a compassionate, grounded perspective on what vicarious trauma looks like, how it shows up in our bodies and businesses, and why it’s something we all encounter as clinicians. She also introduces the beautiful idea of vicarious resilience—the glimmers of hope and connection we receive from doing this work.
We also talk about how faith, community, and honest conversations can help us lead from a place of clarity instead of overwhelm. Whether you’re a solo practitioner or running a growing group practice, this conversation will give you language, tools, and encouragement to navigate the emotional weight of this work with more intention.
This conversation is full of insight, encouragement, and practical wisdom for anyone doing the sacred work of helping others heal.
What Is Vicarious Trauma Really?
Vicarious trauma is the emotional residue that builds up when we empathically engage with others’ pain. It’s not the same as burnout, and it’s not a sign of weakness. It’s quite literally part of the job. When we sit with clients in their darkest moments, our hearts can absorb pieces of that experience.
Jenny put it so clearly: “We can’t walk through water without getting wet.”
Many of us were trained to avoid vicarious trauma—as if we could. But the truth is, we need to name it, normalize it, and create space to process it. Otherwise, it spills into the way we supervise, respond to team concerns, and lead our practices.
The Other Side: Vicarious Resilience
Before this conversation, I had heard the term “vicarious resilience,” but Jenny made it come alive for me. It’s the opposite of vicarious trauma—those moments of hope, connection, or gratitude we absorb from our clients.
Maybe it’s the way a client shares a breakthrough…
Maybe it’s the courage you witness in the room…
Maybe it’s the reminder that God is still healing and restoring, right in front of you.
Those glimmers matter. And when we learn to notice them intentionally, they become a source of strength and renewal.
A Moment God Used to Speak to Me
At the Wise Practice Summit this year, I had a moment during prayer that really shaped this episode for me. God brought to mind the image of Moses coming down from the mountain—full of clarity and direction—only to find chaos and distraction among the people he was leading.
How many times as practice owners have we felt that?
How many times have we sensed God’s direction, only to look around and feel misunderstood or overwhelmed?
Leadership is beautiful, but it can be heavy. And when we layer vicarious trauma on top of that, it becomes even more complex. That’s why we need grounding, support, and honest conversations.
Why This Matters for Group Practice Owners
If you lead a team, you’re holding:
Your clients’ emotional weight
Your clinicians’ emotional weight
The administrative struggles
The financial responsibilities
And the spiritual discernment that comes with shepherding a mission
It’s a lot.
Jenny reminded me that naming these realities with your team is not weakness—it’s leadership. When your clinicians know it’s safe to talk about their own vicarious trauma, your entire practice becomes healthier, calmer, and more cohesive.
We Can’t Do This Alone
Whether you’re a solo practitioner or running a group practice, you need community.
You need spaces where you can be honest.
Where you can be human.
Where you can be supported, not judged.
That’s why I’m grateful for communities like Brave, and why I’m so passionate about the Wise Practice community as well. We are not meant to carry this work alone.
Final Thoughts
My hope is that this conversation encourages you to pause and check in with your own heart. How is the work affecting you? What support do you need? Where can you create more space for vicarious resilience?
We lead best when we allow ourselves to be human. And God meets us right there—in the middle of the mess, the ministry, and the mission.
If you haven’t listened to the episode yet, I encourage you to give it a listen. It’s a powerful reminder that caring for ourselves is not a luxury. It’s part of our calling.
Jenny’s Resources
The BRAVE Trauma Therapist Collective
Links and Resources
Join the Wise Practice Membership Community
Learn More about Wise Practice Consulting
Connect with Wise Practice on Instagram
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[00:00:00] Whitney Owens: Hi, I am Whitney Owens. I'm a group practice owner and faith-based practice consultant, and I'm here to tell you that you can have it all. Wanna grow your practice, wanna grow your faith, wanna enjoy your life outside of work, you've come to the right place. Each week on the Wise Practice Podcast, I will give you the action steps to have a successful faith-based practice while also having a good time.
Now, let's get started.
[00:00:29] Jingle: Where she grows your practice and she don't play. She does business with a twist of faith. It's Whitney Owen and Wise Practice Podcast, Whitney Owen and Wise Practice Podcast.
[00:00:47] Whitney Owens: Welcome back to The Wise Practice Podcast. I appreciate you listening. There's so many other podcasts out there, and you take the time to hang out with me.
It truly means a lot to me. I love bringing you faith-based content, helping you with your practice. Even beyond that, really looking at these deeper things that are going on within us because it's who we are in our faith that impacts the way that we run our business. This episode today, I interview Jenny Hughes who's gonna go into how vicarious trauma impacts our work with clients.
It impacts the way we run our business, and then how do we manage that better? And then she's gonna have a really cool resource at the end, so make sure you stay tuned. I wanted to bring to you in this introduction. Kind of a, a little bit of a Bible teaching in a way, but something that has been speaking to me lately.
So when I was at the Wise Practice Summit a few weeks ago, or really more, almost two months ago, we had a time of prayer. It was really cool, and I went up to a practice owner and just said, I need some prayer. There's some stuff going on in my practice. I need some direction, some clarity. So she laid a hand on me and as she's praying.
The Lord reminded me of the passage of Moses where he goes up on the mountain and he gets the 10 Commandments and then he comes back down. 'cause that is a lot of what it's like going to a conference. Right. But I also think there's something about Moses and the desert and the people that remind me a little bit of what it's like running a business, working with people, the difficulties we have as leaders.
So he comes off the mountain and God has given him the words for the Israelites, and he, I'm thinking was happy, confident, excited to share that with them. And what are they doing? They have created their golden calf and they are worshiping that instead. And Moses was so distraught, he dropped the tablets and what I think he threw the calf in.
I can't remember. He burned it. I he did something with it. Hmm. And then God encouraged him to call the Levites together with their swords, and they went throughout the camp and got rid of the people who weren't serving God right. Now, I know that's an extreme, but it does remind me of this idea of leading a practice that we, we are going somewhere, right?
We feel led by God in what we're doing. The people that work for us, the people in our communities, people are not gonna understand that they're gonna be going after their own goals. And you know, we might have something to share with them, a direction for them, and they don't follow. And we have got to have people on our team and in our lives that know the vision that God has given us and are helping us move forward.
It doesn't mean that these people are necessarily wrong or bad or have the wrong ideas. It's just a matter of how God is leading each of us in different directions, right? And so you want to share the mission and vision that God has given you and ask people to come alongside you, right? Instead of maybe the grumbling and complaining that happened with the Israelites.
Now I wanna take this a step further here. 'cause I was thinking also about the story where, um, they are outta water. Look, it ain't bad to complain for water. We all need it, right? Food, water. So Israelites are complaining and, and Moses goes to God and says, what do I do? And God says, I want you to go to the rock and let the water flow out.
Just speak to it. Well, if you know the story, you know that's not what happens. He doesn't speak to it. Only he hits it, hits it twice, I believe with his staff and. I can't say I am a perfect Bible scholar, but the way that I read the passage, he is in trouble or told he will not go to the Promised Land because he disobeyed.
He disobeyed because he hit the rocket instead of speaking to it. Now, I'm not a hundred percent sure why, um, it's my understanding that it was outta his anger. He's mad at the Israelites for all they're complaining. I can relate. Regardless if my team is complaining or maybe they're just sharing a suggestion.
Sometimes it just feels like you can't get ahead. You can't win. People don't understand where you're going and what you're doing, but acting outta anger does not bring water out of the rock. We all need more refreshment, renewal in our practice, more of the Holy Spirit, but it is in times that we are calm, that we speak truth, and that we express love and not anger that God is seen.
God blesses that and moves us forward. I hope that this will be kind of a mental image or something for you to hold onto as we have to have hard conversations and we have to face things in our practice that we would look to Christ. For our peace and our direction and that we would lead the people for.
Alright, so there's your Bible lesson for today, and now we're gonna do some interviews, podcasts, and so we're gonna listen to Jenny Hughes. This is episode 161. How Vicarious Trauma Impacts Your Work.
Welcome back to The Wise Practice Podcast, and today I have Jenny Hughes, PhD licensed clinical psychologist, specializing in trauma and PTSD. She supports helpers and healers through the common experience of vicarious trauma. As the founder of the Brave Trauma Therapist collective, Jenny helps trauma therapists be human again as they learn how to manage vicarious trauma and enhance vicarious resilience.
Together as a clinician. She practices brain spotting EMDR and cognitive processing therapy. She is the author of the PTSD Recovery Workbook and Triggers to Glimmers, a Vicarious Resilience Journal and workbook. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.
Yeah. So before we get into it, could you share a little bit about yourself, you know, kinda where you're located and it sounds like you have your own practice. I'd love to hear a little bit about that.
[00:07:13] Jenny Hughes, PhD: Yeah, so I am currently located in Houston, Texas. I am from Colorado. I have lived in California and New Orleans.
A lot of my training as a psychologist took me around the country, and I've been in Houston since 2018. Now I am a mom. Two little kids, they're two and almost five. I have an amazing 13-year-old stepdaughter, two dogs, and we're just sort of living the semi suburban life here in Houston.
[00:07:43] Whitney Owens: That's awesome.
Yeah. Wow. And and do you have a practice there in Houston?
[00:07:49] Jenny Hughes, PhD: Yeah, so I work for eHealth, so that's the University of Texas Health Science Center, and I had a private practice from 2019 until just recently, but I'm going full-time at UT because I'm gonna be the program director of our new Master's in Clinical Psychology program.
So I'm still able to practice clinically through ut, but I wanted to be able to really work with up and coming clinicians and so I was able to move my private practice and, you know, kind of absorb some of that through ut still be able to serve those clients and then take this kind of next step and some of my professional
[00:08:27] Whitney Owens: work.
I love that. Oh, that's so great. You're gonna be investing in the next generation of clinicians, so Great. Okay, so your expertise, one of them is vicarious trauma. You know, we know a little bit about that in working with clients, but I think we're gonna talk about that more from a business perspective today.
Yeah,
[00:08:45] Jenny Hughes, PhD: yeah, absolutely. So, you know, another one of the hats that I wear is supporting fellow therapists and trauma therapist is sort of my specialty, but I think we all work with trauma no matter kind of what our training is. And so it is so important to me to normalize the experience of vicarious trauma because we're taught in grad school and beyond that it's.
This boogeyman under the bed and that it's something that we need to avoid as clinicians, like do not experience vicarious trauma, but. It just happens right? When we ex, when we engage empathically with the people that we are serving or the employees that we are supporting, we are going to experience vicarious trauma because that's the pathway to it is empathic, empathic engagement, and so.
We can't walk through water without getting wet. We can't be clinicians without being affected by our work, and that's not a bad thing. It can certainly cause more problems if we aren't able to ring out our vicarious trauma sponge. And though the other side of vicarious trauma is vicarious resilience.
You read both of those words in my bio and they're both accessed through this empathic engagement, the human connection that we get to experience as clinicians and also as, as as therapy business owners. And vicarious resilience is all of the glimmers, all of the beautiful things we get to soak up from our interactions.
And from a business perspective, this matters for business owners because not only for themselves do they need to understand it, but especially for group practice owners, they need to understand these dynamics in their clinicians and, and the whole system that they are creating and supporting.
[00:10:23] Whitney Owens: Hmm. Yeah, I'm just sitting here thinking about specific situations.
[00:10:27] Jenny Hughes, PhD: Like what? So tell me, tell me. Yeah,
[00:10:29] Whitney Owens: yeah. Well this is, I actually, this is not technically therapy, but more in the business side. I actually was just visiting with a school, because the schools are all going back at the time of this recording, and so we make an effort to go into different schools and meet with the counselors, and one of them was sharing about all the stuff going on in the school, right.
I'm not even the one with the students, and I'm like having this empathy for this counselor who's managing so many different students. And when I got in my car, I was like, Ooh, that was heavy. Mm-hmm. Like I didn't realize how heavy it was till I got in the car and I was like, and then, and man, you're probably gonna have a heyday with me right now.
And then I was like. I wanna offload this on somebody. That was what I thought. I have so much to offload, that's all in my head and in my gut. And how do I like get this out? Do I need to journal when I get back, what do I need to do? And then I was like, I got this podcast and running into, okay, straight here.
Did that happen this morning? Oh, literally that just happened. I like literally just got here. But yeah, I could tell so many stories, but that's one of them.
[00:11:35] Jenny Hughes, PhD: Well, but that's such, I mean, such a perfect story. And also just the arc of it. I mean, we have to be able to talk about this stuff. Right? And you're describing this parallel process.
We all know the parallel processes as clinicians, right? Like the things our clients are telling us affect us, the things we tell our supervisors or our consultants affect them. Mm-hmm. That's exactly what happened to you today, and especially when we go out. On our own, once we're licensed and when we are the leader, when we are running the, the business, it can feel so incredibly lonely if we don't have other colleagues that we can talk to about it.
And that's a big reason why I started brave because one hipaa we have to honor and, and protect. All of the things that our clients tell us. And also there are legal and safe ways to talk to fellow clinicians about our experiences, which is really unique 'cause we can't go home and like my husband is a, a jazz musician.
He did not sign up as a therapist, especially not as a trauma therapist. So it's just not okay for me. Like ethically, morally to share these things with him. HIPAA aside, he didn't sign up for that. Mm-hmm. But a lot of us clinicians did. And when we have spaces where we can talk about these things in safe, supported, and and adaptive ways, it really makes a difference.
[00:12:58] Whitney Owens: Mm. Yeah. My husband's a pastor. So
[00:13:03] Jenny Hughes, PhD: we
[00:13:03] Whitney Owens: have
[00:13:03] Jenny Hughes, PhD: like a double whammy. So he signed up for a lot of this too, right? Yeah. What is that like? Do y'all talk about kind of the people that you're serving and supporting? Oh
[00:13:14] Whitney Owens: yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. And I have to be like, okay, this. This is our conversation. We don't let it go out of this space, you know, but yeah, supporting each other and, and when he was a pastor at a church, a lot closer to my office, now he's at a different church that also brought dynamics.
'cause a lot of the clients from that church would come to this practice. Now they didn't see me 'cause I wanted to have that separation, but they wanted to come here because they trust me. Yeah. And, and I have faith-based therapists that could work with those clients and so they would work with other people in the practice.
And usually I didn't hear things unless something terrible happened, then I'm hearing about it and it's just this whole spiral. Right, right.
[00:13:52] Jenny Hughes, PhD: But having that person, and for you, I mean. With it being your partner and your husband, there are definitely a whole other layer of dynamics. Like you can see me looking up as I'm like thinking through all of that, but it also is sort of a superpower I imagine at times, because you get each other, you get the work.
And one thing that might be interesting for both you and your husband and also with the clinicians that that you are serving, is starting to be more intentional of talking about vicarious resilience and the glimmers that are happening in the relationships between clinician and client, amongst all of the clinicians in your practice, et cetera.
Because these are those beautiful moments where we get those warm fuzzies. Feel connected with our faith, our spirituality, the person, even more so in the room, and they often happen in unexpected moments. They're not necessarily the big, oh, I graduated from therapy, or I made this huge breakthrough A lot of times for me anyway, they happen when in if there, if you were a fly on the wall in my therapy session, you would see a client who looked like they were in a lot of pain.
Really dealing with something. And for me as their clinician who I know them so deeply, I also know where they're going. I know the work that they're doing and where it's going to take them. And so that's inspiring for me because I can see the healing in real time in my work. And so that's another way that we can experience vicarious resilience.
And when we share it with other clinicians and people who get it, we get to enhance it and it, and it becomes this renewable energy source for us. Hmm.
[00:15:32] Whitney Owens: Yeah, because when you first said vicarious resilience, I was thinking, what does she mean by that? And I, so I love what you just said, and now I'm like reflecting on this experience I just had with these school counselors.
And when I was driving home, I was also thinking, I felt so connected to them. Yes. Yes. And that brought me a lot of life because as a business owner, I spend so much time managing the business, I can lose that human interaction and that brings me so much joy. So right before we got on, I was shooting 'em a follow-up email and saying, Hey, I know that we talked about a lot and you do a lot, but y'all brought me a lot of life and joy today and I love that I got to connect with you.
And so like that brings up, I guess what you're talking about. Is that a good example? That is a
[00:16:14] Jenny Hughes, PhD: perfect example. And I have this exercise that I often teach folks in Brave and elsewhere called Soft Transitions. Mm-hmm. And it helps us to identify moments of vicarious resilience to help us transition between our roles in life.
Because I think that the expectation that we need to leave work at work is really toxic and is hurting a lot of clinicians because we're still the same human. And so when we think about our dear clients at dinner, it's so easy to shame ourselves like, Ugh, why couldn't I just have left that in my office?
Right. And so we have to have a way to transition, and vicarious resilience can help with that of mm-hmm. At the end of the day, or between sessions, whatever it might be, thinking about one or two moments of vicarious resilience and then. Doing essentially a gratitude practice. And it can either be things you're grateful for or people that you wanna say thank you to and that's what you
[00:17:05] Whitney Owens: did today.
Oh, I love that. You know, talking about, and I'm a huge Enneagram fan. Mm-hmm. Okay. I'm like in it. Yep. And so that's something that's interesting about my husband and I. He's a five, so he's got the gift of detachment. Man, I wish I had that gift. Mm-hmm. But I also love my gift 'cause I'm very attached. You know, I'm an Enneagram one.
I feel it in my gut. I'm very invested in what I do and, and I used to do what you just said. I used to say, I wish I didn't care so much. Let that go, stop that. And after a while I was like, you know what? I deeply love people and things, so just start embracing that. And so I started embracing it, what you're talking about, and it made things so much better.
I felt like I was trying to be someone I wasn't. So it's how can I be this person love these things deeply and it's okay to talk about that appropriately with my spouse in an appropriate setting. And sometimes even with other people, like there'll be times that maybe a friend is like, you don't seem very happy, or something's going on.
I'm like, well, yeah, that client share something really heavy with me today and I'm sitting with it. And that's okay to hold that space for that client. In the appropriate amount of time, and I will process that and I'll get through it, but it does help to just share that even with someone else that doesn't even know any of the details about it.
[00:18:19] Jenny Hughes, PhD: Mm-hmm. What do you, I'm curious if you, as we're talking about it now, what do you think that that has done for you as a group practice owner, as the leader of your business in terms of how you approach supporting your employees, your clinicians, and the work that they're doing of lean into who you are as opposed to trying to be something that you're not?
[00:18:40] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so it reminds me of a conversation I actually had with a team member this week. Where I, I don't know if she quite brought it up or I was just sensing it, but I started talking about, and she's a newer therapist. I started talking about like seasons of therapy and we have seasons where we feel more burnt out, overwhelmed, difficult, and sometimes we can point our finger and say, okay, well I had five suicidal clients in the past two weeks or whatever.
Right. Sometimes you just can't. And you just might not know. And that's just the nature of the longer you do this, there're gonna be seasons that feel really great and seasons that don't feel so great and just accepting that and being okay with it. Mm-hmm. And she was like. I'm so glad you said that.
'cause I just never realized that's part of this. And so we had this bonding moment over that and I was glad to be able to kind of give that to her.
[00:19:31] Jenny Hughes, PhD: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. And then ultimately giving her permission to be where she is in her journey and her process and who she is as a human. To just be human, we're, that's what we are as people.
[00:19:43] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Definitely. So what other kind of suggestions as a group practice center do you have in working with our team members?
[00:19:51] Jenny Hughes, PhD: So first and foremost is naming and acknowledging that vicarious trauma is a normal thing, right? I said that earlier at the beginning. It's not the boogeyman under the bed. It is already happening to all of us, and we can't, we can't.
Pretend that it's not so calling a thing, a thing, naming it. I have a free vicarious trauma tracker that a lot of folks will use and I have a number of group practices as a part of the Brave Trauma Therapist collective and their, their practice owners use a lot of our tools in, for example, their supervision meetings or their team meetings to really help them talk about.
Some of these tough topics that we, we aren't kind of given permission to discuss as the leaders of a business where we think that maybe it's gonna be too dangerous or too scary, or we're gonna kind of like, you know, a lot of people are afraid to ask about trauma, especially outside of the therapy space.
I'm gonna retraumatize someone by asking them about their trauma. No, it's already happened to them. They know it's real. So we also know the real experiences in our lives as clinicians and as group practice owners. When that conversation is open, when your clinicians know they can talk about it, you are going to improve their quality of life.
In your practice, you're going to have better retention of employees and they're gonna feel better about the work they're doing with their clients. And so it's a win-win for everyone. And then combining that with that other side of the coin, there's the vicarious trauma and then the vicarious resilience.
And really teaching your clinicians how to, first of all, what is vicarious resilience? How do we then notice it, identify it in our work? How do we install it in our brain and body? And then how do we enhance it by talking about all these beautiful glimmers as a team? And so even just those two skills and approaches to interacting with your clinicians is going to really, truly make a difference for your business and for your bottom line.
[00:21:54] Whitney Owens: I think something to be said here is as I'm listening to you, I'm like, well, yeah, that makes sense. But I think that we know things, but we don't communicate things right, and so our team members need us to be talking about it. Even if it's in your head, and even if you think, oh, everyone knows about trauma.
We hear about it all the time. We need to be talking about that and exactly what it looks like. Yep.
[00:22:16] Jenny Hughes, PhD: Because your team is following your lead, right? Mm-hmm. And they, they're relying on you to guide, especially those difficult conversations and to let them know that those difficult topics are welcome in whatever spaces are, are set up, or, you know, designed for those discussions.
Yeah. And when they know that they can talk about those things, their nervous systems are gonna regulate. Right. You're your, all of your interactions within your team are gonna feel so much more connected and there's gonna be so much less anxiety meetings after the meeting side talk, things like that, that none of us want, but are also coping mechanisms of employees and team members who are maybe not feeling a whole really regulated in, in spaces within our businesses.
[00:23:07] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I'm also sitting here personally and as a consultant thinking about the trauma we experience with our team. Like team members that leave abruptly. The, just the, just the chaos that occurs with client rescheduling. I mean, so many things as a business owner, maybe people who had a terrible debt and came out of it, they're fearful it's gonna happen again.
So not sure if that's something that you talk a lot about, like the, the trauma of actually owning the business and how that impacts the business owner. Okay. You're saying? Oh yeah. Yeah.
[00:23:43] Jenny Hughes, PhD: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for me, so I was really fortunate to go through a DARE to Lead training program last year with a trainer, and it was so incredibly helpful for me to think about my own leadership.
Style. And then how do I support these business owners and these leaders who are in my space and who are coming and saying like, Hey, I recognize that something like brave or a training that you give is gonna be really beneficial to my clinicians. And also knowing that that business owner, that leader, can feel so very alone.
And when they feel alone, it makes it even more difficult to acknowledge. Hey, this team member left with really, really little notice, right? Or under X, Y, and Z circumstances, or we're not really meeting our numbers this month, and I don't really know how to talk to you all about that without feeling like I'm being.
Pressured and, and and focused on productivity. And so we all need to have our own spaces. And so for leaders in group practices, knowing who are your folks that you can talk to so that you can have those difficult conversations with your team. Also knowing like Brene Brown always says Clear is kind. So acknowledging the thing that everyone already knows is in the room, is in the space, yeah.
Is in the relationship. That can be really scary and that is really activating in our bodies as the leader. But once we kind of say the first awkward words, once we kind of cut through that fear and anxiety in our own bodies and we put it into the space, more often than not, your team is gonna respond.
It's gonna open things up. And it is ultimately gonna bring, bring people closer together.
[00:25:32] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gosh, it's so important. I, I think the idea of community, yeah. You know, is a big part of it. And this year I implemented a new leadership structure. Really it was me and I kind of had some people helping me lead the practice, but I wouldn't say we were doing it as a team.
And now I have this like a really solid leadership team and that has made. The world of difference. So I resonate a lot with what you were just saying about things I was scared to say, but then I forced myself to say 'em and how much better it got and the healing it's been for me, and just the weight that's been taken off of me by having, you know, a supportive leadership team.
[00:26:10] Jenny Hughes, PhD: And for folks who are earlier on in their process of growing their group practice. Yeah. Find your colleagues that are also doing this work, fellow group practice owners. Mm-hmm. So that you can, even if you don't have a full fledged leadership team within your practice yet. You have other folks who are doing that work and for example, listening to this podcast, that can count as one of your colleagues, right?
Because you're able to hear and resonate with so many of the things that are discussed. And then finding those other folks in your circle that understand your work as a business owner, as the group practice owner, as a leader. And ideally also as a clinician, not all of them have to understand that, but it's really unique to be a therapist, to then be a leader of therapists.
And so we gotta have spaces where we can be seen, heard, and
[00:26:59] Whitney Owens: understood. Mm-hmm. 100%. I was just talking to one of my interns yesterday and I was like, yeah, I go to therapy. Yep. Knocked anyone in town. You know, like, I don't, I don't want people in town hearing my stuff, but like, you've gotta find that space so that you do have that.
And, and I know that that's something that you provide with Brave, you know, is, is kind of that space. I'm, I'm guessing you work with people all over the country, all over the world. Yeah. Could you talk a little bit about
[00:27:26] Jenny Hughes, PhD: your program? Yeah, so in Brave, we are an online community for trauma therapists and we have five plus calls per month.
Sometimes it varies depending on how many trainings we're offering in a given month, but we have different calls. For consultation. We have three consult different consultation calls every month. I do a training every month on things like vicarious trauma, vicarious resilience, burnout, things like that.
And then we have lots of different guest experts who come in to teach us just amazing topics. And a, a lot of those offer CES as well. Oh, that's great.
[00:28:04] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Oh, I
[00:28:04] Jenny Hughes, PhD: love
that.
[00:28:05] Whitney Owens: I love that. Oh, so all over the world. That's
[00:28:08] Jenny Hughes, PhD: cool. Yeah, so we have folks in the uk. We just had someone who joined from Sweden actually.
Hmm. We have folks in New Zealand, Australia, Canada. You know, we, it is an English speaking community and so we're, we're pulling from places where they're English speakers, but we have folks from all over the world and we have, they're able to connect 24 7 too. 'cause we have. Private online space off of all of the, the, you know, regular apps and things like that.
Yeah. Where people can get that support anytime because consultation needs and support needs don't only happen on Fridays at noon, you know? No, they do not.
[00:28:47] Whitney Owens: No, they do not. And. I just love this idea that we're all over the place doing this work, and we're all connected in that human experience of being therapists.
So I, I just love thinking about the people that are in other countries doing that, and I'm doing it. What was my, oh, are they all practice owners or just as long as they're therapists or how does that work?
[00:29:07] Jenny Hughes, PhD: So, I mean as, as long as you're a therapist essentially. So we have a lot of different group practices who have really embedded brave as essentially a benefit for their employees.
Something that if their employees want to opt in, the group practice owners will support that. And it's a very low cost's, just $12 a month to to be a part of Brave. We want it to be accessible for both individual folks. Who are in private practice or you know, maybe in a, an agency organization and are seeking this for themselves.
We also want it to be accessible for businesses that want to provide this support for their employees. One thing that's really great for the business owners too, is because we offer so much consultation and training, it is able to. F like fill in and, and, and offload some of those needs depending on the business structure.
Mm-hmm. So, of course, we're not providing supervision towards licensure, but we are offering multiple consultation spaces for their clinicians to get that support, which frees up the group practice owner or the designated supervisor to do additional things or other things that are, they're also wanting to pursue.
[00:30:18] Whitney Owens: I love that. That is so important because boy, my therapists are all asking for more education and there's only so much education I can give.
[00:30:26] Jenny Hughes, PhD: Right? Exactly. Exactly. And then you have someone who, you know, a whole organization that can find those experts, bring them in, and then also provide the CES for you in addition to that case consultation piece.
[00:30:39] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Hmm. That's so good. Is there anything else that is important to mention here that we might have left off? I
[00:30:47] Jenny Hughes, PhD: think bottom line, and we've talked about this throughout, is just giving ourselves permission to be human. Mm-hmm. That's what we are. We are humans. We can't do this alone. And so knowing that it's okay to reach out to ask for help and that there are safe spaces where you can land.
So one thing that, that I know personally and also just kind of in the wider experience is a lot of therapists have had difficult experiences in other therapist spaces. And I think that that's something to name, to acknowledge. And I'm not saying that brave is perfect by any means, and it is also a space where we are all agreeing that we are human, we are all agreeing that we are here to support each other and to come to the table with, with no judgment, no, no name calling, none of those things.
Because if we can't talk about our experiences as therapists, that's what leads to a. Mistakes. That's what leads to potentially bad things happening in our careers and in our therapist spaces. And so mm-hmm. Whether it's brave or anywhere else, find a space where you feel like you can land, where you can be human and be yourself.
It's not about being perfect, but about finding those spaces to be human. Mm-hmm.
[00:32:04] Whitney Owens: Yes. Yes. And it definitely leads to mistakes when we're not. So I really, I, I like that you added that in as well. Thanks. So you have got a freebie for us. A trauma vicarious trauma tracker. Did I say that one? Yes.
[00:32:18] Jenny Hughes, PhD: So it's a vicarious trauma tracker and it also includes a little mini course that I created to walk people through using the tracker, understanding what is vicarious trauma.
You can find it@braveproviders.com slash vt tracker as in vicarious trauma tracker and just can go grab it and use it and, and as like. Always I invite anyone to reach out with questions with curiosities. I am here to help and so I don't want anyone to hesitate to reach out.
[00:32:50] Whitney Owens: That's great. Well, you know, this has been such a good start to the conversation, you know, and getting us talking about it, thinking about it, and getting therapists thinking about how do I implement this for myself and how do I implement this for my group practice?
So I'll certainly be like munching on this as I think about how to do that. So Jenny, this has been so enlightening and enjoyable, so thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show.
[00:33:13] Jenny Hughes, PhD: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really grateful for this.
[00:33:20] Jingle: So click on follow and leave a review and keep on loving this work we do with Whitney Owens and The Wise Practice Podcast, oh Whitney Owens and The Practice Podcast.
[00:33:38] Whitney Owens: Special thanks to Marty Altman for the music in this podcast. The Wise Practice Podcast is part of the Site Craft Podcast Network. A collaboration of independent podcasters focused on helping people live more meaningful and productive lives.
To learn more about the other amazing podcasts in the network, head on over to site craft network.com. The Wise Practice podcast represents the opinions of Whitney Owens and her guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only, and the content should not be taken as legal advice. If you have legal questions, please consult an attorney.
