Navigating Spiritual Abuse with Clients with Chris Conley
Understanding Spiritual Abuse
Spiritual abuse is a form of trauma that occurs when a person’s faith or religious beliefs are manipulated, often by trusted leaders or community members. Chris Conley, a clinical director and doctoral student, explains it well: “When you have a relationship or a trust and that relationship is manipulated or taken advantage of to another person's harm.” This type of trauma can deeply affect a person's sense of self and their relationship with their faith.
The Importance of Validation
One of the key points Chris emphasizes is the need to validate clients’ experiences without pushing a religious agenda. He says, “Feeling a need to defend the church or a pastor or a faith system has to go out the window when you’re working.” For therapists, it’s crucial to create a safe space where clients can share their stories without fear of being judged or corrected.
Personal Impact and Professional Passion
Chris's interest in spiritual abuse comes from his background in vocational ministry. He shares, “I still hold on to a Christian faith...but I do find the work so valuable.” His passion is helping people find meaning in their faith despite their traumatic experiences. This approach allows clients to navigate their healing journey at their own pace, without feeling pressured to return to their previous beliefs or communities.
Approaching Therapy Without Bias
Therapists must check their biases and avoid bringing their personal beliefs into the therapy room. Chris advises, “We don’t talk politics with our clients...we keep opinions to ourselves.” This is especially important when dealing with spiritual abuse, as imposing one’s beliefs can further harm the client.
Marketing to Clients with Spiritual Trauma
Marketing to clients who have experienced spiritual trauma requires sensitivity. Chris suggests focusing on existential stress in advertising. Phrases like “Are you experiencing existential stress?” or “Have you had experiences with faith that have caused you harm?” can attract clients who need support without alienating them with overtly religious language.
Resources for Understanding Spiritual Abuse
Chris recommends the book “When Narcissism Comes to Church” by Chuck DeGroat. This book explores how narcissistic leadership in churches can lead to manipulation and harm. He also mentions using scales like the Attitudes Towards God Scale and the Spiritual Abuse Harm Scale to help clients understand their experiences and feelings.
Final Thoughts and Tips for Growth
Validate Experiences: Always validate your client’s experiences without trying to correct or defend religious institutions.
Avoid Bias: Keep personal beliefs out of the therapy room to ensure a safe and unbiased space for your clients.
Use Sensitive Language: When marketing, use language that addresses existential stress and spiritual questions without being overtly religious.
Provide Resources: Recommend helpful books and tools like “When Narcissism Comes to Church” and appropriate scales to aid in their healing process.
By following these steps, therapists can better support clients navigating the complex and often painful journey of spiritual abuse recovery.
The Wise Practice Summit
The episode also highlights the upcoming Wise Practice Summit, an event dedicated to faith-based practice owners. The summit promises to be an enriching environment for networking, learning, and growth. It aims to foster a sense of community among practitioners who wish to blend their faith with their professional practice.
Brenda Stewart, a practice owner from Winter Park, Florida, shares her positive experience at the Wise Practice Summit, praising its blend of practice-building workshops and faith-based spiritual care discussions. Her testimonial underscores the energizing and soulful impact of the event, encouraging others to attend.
How Can Gusto Help Save Time with Payroll Processing?
Gusto is an excellent payroll processing option for therapist group practice owners due to its intuitive interface and comprehensive support. It simplifies the complex task of managing payroll, taxes, and employee benefits, which is particularly beneficial for practices with multi-state employees. Gusto’s paperless onboarding streamlines the hiring process, and its user-friendly software makes it easy for administrative staff to run payroll efficiently. Additionally, Gusto’s responsive phone support ensures that questions or issues are promptly addressed, allowing therapists to focus more on their clients and less on administrative tasks. If you sign up using this link, you will get a $100 sign-on bonus!
Guest Resources
@iamconley on Facebook and Instagram
The Clinician Connection Conference April 18-19 in Virginia Beach. Code "WISEPRACTICE" 10% off ticket at www.clinicianconnection.net
Links and Resources
Looking for support and connection: Join the Wise Practice Community
Learn More about Whitney Owens Consulting
Connect with Whitney Ownes on Instagram
Connect with Whitney Ownes on Facebook
Check the podcasts on the PsychCraft Network: PsychCraftnetwork.com
-
WP 82 | Navigating Spiritual Abuse with Clients with Chris Conley
===
[00:00:00] James Marland: Attention all employers and managers of contractors. Are you tired of spending hours onboarding new employees? Look no further than Gusto. One of my favorite things Gusto does is it smooths out the onboarding process with standardized employee documents. Online signatures without leaving Gusto and access to your employee.
[00:00:26] James Marland: Onboarding files all in one place. And guess what. If you use our link in the show notes, you get a free gift. Just for signing up. Don't let payroll stress and onboarding stress weigh you down.
[00:00:40] James Marland: Visit gusto.com today.
[00:00:45] Whitney Owens: Hi, I'm Whitney Owens. I'm a group practice owner and faith based practice consultant. And I'm here to tell you that you can have it all. Want to grow your practice? Want to grow your faith? Want to enjoy your life outside of work?
[00:00:58] Whitney Owens: You've come to the right place. Each week on the Wise Practice Podcast, I will give you the action steps to have a successful faith based practice while also having a good time. Now let's get started.
[00:01:12] Whitney Owens: Hello friends. Hope everybody's doing well, enjoying the month of May, which can be such craziness, but you're getting through it. Summer is just around the corner when hopefully you'll be able to relax a little bit more. Maybe still work on your practice. I actually think summer is a great time to move forward in your practice because it is slower.
[00:01:32] Whitney Owens: I can think a little more clearly, right? So looking forward to time with my family, time to work on my business and time to relax a little bit right now. I want to talk a little bit about an amazing event coming up, which is the Wise Practice Summit. So this event is for faith based practice owners. So that's you listening to the show and we're going to get together in Charlotte in October, the 3rd through the 5th.
[00:01:57] Whitney Owens: And we're going to grow our practices together. We're going to do that through talks and learning from experts in the field through talking with one another and having a good time. Look, being a Christian means you can have fun and grow your practice and do it all at the same time. So I'm looking forward to hanging out with y'all.
[00:02:14] Whitney Owens: Now I could sit here all day long and tell you how great this event is. I mean, when I look back on it, I see new relationships that were made. I see people that grew their practices, came up with new ideas. I could go on and on about how great this event is. Right. But Hey, I'm the host. So you're going to hear that from me, but I reached out to a few people.
[00:02:35] Whitney Owens: I really just put a massive message out there and said, Hey, Does anybody want to share about their experience of being at the summit and how that impacted them and how that helped their practice? And I definitely had some people speak up, so I wanted to share a testimonial from 1 of our attendees at the event, and then we're going to get into this episode.
[00:02:54] Whitney Owens: So you're going to hear 1st from Brenda. And she is a practice owner based in Florida. She's going to share about her experience at the Wise Practice Summit. You can grab your ticket by going to wisepractisconsulting. com. Learn more about the event and get your ticket. I want you to know that it is approved for CEs, 15 of them, NBCC approved.
[00:03:14] Whitney Owens: So that's, at least in the state of Georgia, that's almost half of what I need. So we'd love for you to join us. You get to hang out with faith based practice centers, get your CEs. It really doesn't get much better than that. And then once you hear Brenda's testimonial, we're going to get into the episode today, which is on a topic that's difficult, but important on religious trauma that happens in our clients and how do we help them through that.
[00:03:37] Whitney Owens: So thank you again for listening to the show. And now you're going to hear from my girl, Brenda Stewart.
[00:03:46] Brenda: Hi, my name is Brenda Stewart, and I am the owner of Wellspring Therapy Associates in Winter Park, Florida. I'm extremely excited to attend the WISE Practice Summit this year. I was also able to go last year, and it was just such a refreshing time. I felt like my soul was energized. I had gone into the conference feeling a little bit burned out, and by the end of the conference, I was energized and ready to go.
[00:04:11] Brenda: There was a good mix of having. Practice building workshops, faith based spiritual care workshops, as well as spending time relaxing and connecting with friends. I love that Whitney offers this summit with the integration of faith and practice. I think that's so important. And as a Christian myself, my faith is foundational to who I am and my practice.
[00:04:35] Brenda: And so I love the integration. I'm excited to attend this year. The financial investment is worth it. And I hope to see you there.
[00:05:04] Whitney Owens: Well, today on the last practice podcast, I have Chris Conley, who is the co creator of the clinician connection conference. It's a conference to inspire, equip and connect mental health professionals to shape a brighter world. Collectively. He also serves as the clinical director of turning point counseling and consulting in Hampton roads, Virginia, and is the doctoral student at the University of Cumberland, where he is focused on religious and spiritual abuse outside the therapy office.
[00:05:30] Whitney Owens: He is a fan of punk rock, comedy, and getting outside. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
[00:05:36] Chris Conley: Yeah, thanks for having me so much Whitney. I'm excited to be here and having this opportunity to talk with you.
[00:05:41] Whitney Owens: Awesome. Yeah, so when I saw your specialty, what you're studying, I was like, I've got to have this dude on my show because religious and spiritual trauma is.
[00:05:51] Whitney Owens: It's in our office all the day, all the time, sadly enough. So, yeah. So I had Lisa on the show, Lisa DeWay, DeWay, did I say it correctly?
[00:06:00] Chris Conley: Yeah. DeWay, my partner at the practice and my partner with the clinician connection.
[00:06:05] Whitney Owens: Wonderful. Wonderful. Okay. So I had her on the show. Um, that episode is actually now we're recording right now before her show airs hers is airing very soon.
[00:06:15] Whitney Owens: Um, maybe in 2 weeks. Um, so actually this 1 for you, actually, we, this won't air probably till May. Just letting you know, I think. Just realized that right now, but anyway, all that to say is if you're listening to the show, now go back and listen to Lisa and Lisa and Chris work together. And so can you talk a little bit though about you and Lisa's work together and kind of about the work you do?
[00:06:39] Chris Conley: Yeah, sure. So Lisa and I have been partners at Turning Point Counseling and Consulting. She is the CEO owner of the practice. And I came on her staff about four years ago as a therapist. And then as her practice grew, she saw the need for a clinical director. I stepped up into that position. And, uh, her and I really focus our practice on being a practice that is clinician friendly.
[00:07:09] Chris Conley: Um, like we take care of our therapists, we don't micromanage. We do have guardrails and policies to help them, you know, thrive and do well. But I don't know, her and I both have a background in working in places that just really weren't great places to work. And so we wanted to, you know, continue to build her practice into one that is, uh, just very clinician friendly.
[00:07:33] Chris Conley: And it works very well to the point that her and I. Have decided to even invest in clinicians outside of our practice, which is where this conference we're putting on has has come from is, you know, recognizing that. You know, for somebody in our world, you work really hard to be a therapist. You go. Oh, my goodness.
[00:07:58] Chris Conley: I'm making hand bubbles at you. Um, if you're listening, you can't see that. But I just did a thumbs down and it made a thumb on the video. Um, but we, we know you work hard to be a therapist. You go through school, you go through internships and residencies and all this time and money spent. And then when you're on your own.
[00:08:24] Chris Conley: It's really easy to get isolated. It's really easy to, uh, you know, lose camaraderie and then there's plenty of conferences and training opportunities, but I don't know, just the ones I've been to. I'm like, they're just kind of stodgy or they're a little stiff. And so we wanted to build this thing where clinicians can come hang out.
[00:08:46] Chris Conley: They can learn really great things from people who are like in the field. Uh, you know, this is not just folks who it's like, yes, I've read seven books on this topic and I'm going to teach you about it. Like, these are all folks who are in it. Um, and, and for me. That's the spiritual abuse, religious abuse, uh, topic.
[00:09:07] Chris Conley: Um, I, I come from a world, my career prior to mental health was in a vocational ministry. Uh, so I've worked in the church and I've seen the good and the bad of working in that setting. Those different communities and, uh. You know, I, I moved over into mental health work, just following my skill set and passion.
[00:09:28] Chris Conley: And now it's just kind of full circle that as I've been pursuing my doctorate degree and reading and just. Interacting with folks in the church communities, I'm still a part of just seeing how big. This can be, so I, so that's why I'm speaking on the religious and spiritual abuse stuff for our conference, but it's why I speak about it.
[00:09:50] Chris Conley: Any opportunity I get.
[00:09:52] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Yes. Well, it's definitely a sad topic to have to talk about, but so important. Um, so tell me when we talk. Okay. First of all, when I say religious trauma, spiritual trauma, are we talking about the same thing or are these two different things?
[00:10:08] Chris Conley: Uh, they, they can be interchangeable.
[00:10:11] Chris Conley: Um, it depends on who you talk to, but for the sake of our conversation, it's the same thing.
[00:10:16] Whitney Owens: Okay. All right. Okay. So when we talk about religious trauma, what are we talking about?
[00:10:22] Chris Conley: So when we talk about religious trauma, we are talking about really the way we talk about any sort of relational trauma when you have a relationship or a trust.
[00:10:36] Chris Conley: And that relationship is manipulated or taken advantage of to another person's harm. So, uh, I like to frame it by saying, like, if we talk about child abuse, we know what we're talking about. We're talking about a child who's in some relationship or lack of relationship with a trusted caregiver. And that relationship is being mismanaged.
[00:10:59] Chris Conley: Um, or taken advantage of or manipulated in a way that harms a child.
[00:11:04] Whitney Owens: If you're
[00:11:04] Chris Conley: talking about a spousal abuse relationship, you're talking about a relationship that's, you know, hopefully supposed to be built on trust and goodwill towards one another. And then that relationship is manipulated or taken advantage of to the harm of another person.
[00:11:21] Chris Conley: So, we're thinking about one's relationship with their religion or their spirituality, um, and how that is taken advantage of or manipulated by others, resulting in that person intolerable.
[00:11:36] Whitney Owens: Mm hmm. Yeah. So, If you're comfortable sharing, is there a reason that you went into this field specifically? I know you said you did ministry, but like, did you see someone that was in a bad situation or did they come to you?
[00:11:49] Whitney Owens: Or what was that? Like?
[00:11:51] Chris Conley: Sure. So I've, I've been in lots of situations where, you know, you're working with people who. Have maybe been made to feel some shame for something they've been through, and their religion has been used to kind of reinforce that shame. I've also witnessed firsthand and even a couple cases churches where a church leader pastor, um, has been up to manipulative or dishonest behavior, which then, you know, kind of trickles down and affects people who attend their church.
[00:12:25] Chris Conley: Um, and I think what really drives my passion for it is, um, and I'll just disclose like I am a Christian. So I still hold on to a Christian faith, no matter where this discussion may be. Sometimes people might be like, so do you still believe things? And it can be, it can be interesting water to tread with people.
[00:12:45] Chris Conley: Um, but I do. And so the reason I find the work so valuable is I say, okay, I have. Somebody they've had a bad experience with a church figure or a church congregation or sometimes it's not even it can be like their mom was a Sunday school teacher or their grandma was, you know, just a very staunch believer.
[00:13:07] Chris Conley: It doesn't necessarily have to be tied to a church structure. But I'll see they go through this experience, whether it's a relationship or a structural issue or a church community issue, and it impacts something that is very important to them, their own sense of self, their own sense of connection with God.
[00:13:27] Chris Conley: Um, you know, and I'm speaking in a Christian context a lot, but you can translate this over to other spiritual context and other faith systems. You know, so somebody has a bad experience with the church, or they've been hurt by their pastor, and they walk out of that not just grieving the relationship with that pastor or that community, but a lot of times their belief in their God can be affected as well.
[00:13:54] Chris Conley: You know, why would God let this happen? Or, well, this is how churches behave or pastors behave. Then, you know, what is this faith thing all about? I guess it's silly or stupid or not helpful. Um, and so I really find my passion is helping people see that there's still so much good and meaning they can find in their faith.
[00:14:18] Chris Conley: Even if they have to walk through some of these kind of circumstances or scenarios.
[00:14:25] Whitney Owens: Most definitely. And so how do we do that?
[00:14:29] Chris Conley: Great question. Um, you know, of course, with all things counseling and mental health, you know, it can, it can, uh, it's important to note everybody's situation is a little differently, but the first thing is to just validate their experience.
[00:14:45] Chris Conley: Yes. Um, and not try to correct it, especially if you are a faith based person. Um, now I don't bring my faith into the counseling room. That's not part of how I manage myself. There are some practices in my area where that's. There is Christian counseling and that's part of the dynamic. It's not what I do per se.
[00:15:06] Chris Conley: Um, but you know, feeling a need to defend the church or a pastor or a faith system has to go out the window when you're working. And I have seen other, you know, Our other counselors who hold to a faith, I have seen them struggle with like, well, I need this person to know that, you know, Jesus still loves them.
[00:15:27] Chris Conley: Or God is good. Or the church is still a good institution. Like that's not, that's nowhere in my priority checklist as your counselor. I want to hear your experience. I want to, uh, I want to let you know that what you experience is not okay, and most importantly, I'm not putting an agenda on you to find your way back to your faith, to your pastor, to your church.
[00:15:53] Chris Conley: Um, if you land there, great, we can help you with that too, but no religious agenda in the counseling work. Um, and then from there, You know, you're going to get to know their story. You're going to normalize what they've been through. I tell, I tell a lot of people is if you, if you feel comfortable working with other trauma, then you know what to do here.
[00:16:15] Chris Conley: It's not, you know, the mechanisms are not different. It's just, I think because of how important religion and faith can be to people, we feel more uncomfortable with it in the counseling room sometimes, but you know, we're going to hear their experience. We're going to see what they. Where they want to land if they know where they want to land and help them get there, we're going to do, you know, therapy 101 stuff, challenging negative thinking, coping with emotions, maybe even some trauma work to process through some traumatic.
[00:16:48] Chris Conley: Memories or moments that are a whole part of that. Um, but, you know, my, my hope is, even though I don't put it on them as an agenda, my hope is that people can still find some semblance of meaning in their faith, even if they've been through, you know, terrible faith in a spiritual or religious context.
[00:17:08] Whitney Owens: Yeah, I really appreciate your 1st point about, we're not here to defend the church or the pastor, and I could totally see people doing that because church means a lot to the therapist. So they've got to put those biases aside because if they do that, they're actually going to cause trauma in the counseling relationship too.
[00:17:28] Chris Conley: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:17:29] Whitney Owens: Right.
[00:17:29] Chris Conley: Um,
[00:17:31] Whitney Owens: it's kind of the idea was thinking like. Let's say a child had their father abused them by their biological father, not a religious thing. And then they come in and we advocate for the father.
[00:17:45] Chris Conley: Right.
[00:17:45] Whitney Owens: Right. It's the same concept. And I'd never thought of it like that till now.
[00:17:50] Chris Conley: Yeah.
[00:17:51] Chris Conley: And that's that's where so I, I work with a lot of folks. Um, who are therapists, like in my role as a clinical director or just my role in the community as I, you know, network with people or train people or teach people. Um, and I do, you know, really encourage them if you see folks who come to you with any sort of religious issues or spiritual trauma, you have to really check yourself.
[00:18:18] Chris Conley: For any transfer and counter transfer and and also being okay, and it's a reminder that this is something we know to do anyways with other stuff, right? Like, we don't talk politics with our clients. We don't talk, like, you know, whatever's going on in the news. I mean, we might, if it's a source of their stress, but, like, we don't come in and gab like, you know, oh, my gosh, what do you think about that thing?
[00:18:43] Chris Conley: That's going on. Like, we don't do any of that. We keep opinions to ourselves. Um, you know, and so just being a, just being able to have that reminder that when we work with folks. who have been through their own spiritual or religious issues, um, we have to check that stuff in ourself too. Um, and if appropriate, we can refer them to a spiritual help.
[00:19:09] Chris Conley: Like, we can, if it's appropriate for what they're, you know, trying to sort out, we can say, well, hey, have you connected with a pastor, a priest? whatever would be the right person for them. You know, that's not always an appropriate suggestion if they're coming out of abusive faith systems, but for like religious concerns in general, that might very well be inappropriate.
[00:19:40] Whitney Owens: So this is a little off topic, but I'm worried I'm going to forget. And I want to ask this question. How can you market to this type of client that's your idol client?
[00:19:53] Chris Conley: So, um, I actually haven't done a lot of marketing on it. I, I have a lot of word of mouth referrals. Um, I think I kind of have a unique trajectory.
[00:20:04] Chris Conley: As I did my work in vocational ministry in the same community I live in, um, I still attend the last church that I was on staff at. Um, and I, some in my area, I'm very well known in the ministry circles and the mental health circles. And so they just, it just kind of comes my way. Um, but I do think that you could market by, you know, kind of, In your advertising, whether it's through actually, I would say the best way to start.
[00:20:40] Chris Conley: I'm I'm a big believer that word of mouth is the best marketing in general. So, you know, if that's partnering with. Faith communities in your area, which again, maybe that may not be where spiritual abuse clientele come from, but that definitely would be where folks who maybe have some spiritual or religious issues could come from.
[00:21:04] Chris Conley: Um, but in any kind of marketing, it's, it's, I would focus on, like, existential stress. Like, are you experiencing existential stress? Um, have you had yourself with spiritual questions, um, or, or questioning the meaning of your spiritual community? Um, have you had experiences with church or faith that have caused you more, uh, like harm than help?
[00:21:34] Chris Conley: And those, those kinds of, that's just kind of off the top of my head. I've never really thought about writing. Advertising for it. So this might not be the best ideas, but that's where I would start.
[00:21:45] Whitney Owens: No, this is great. Yeah. Um, I get a lot of questions about marketing, you know, because this podcast is for Christian counselors in private practice.
[00:21:55] Whitney Owens: Um, and so a lot of people will ask, should I put a Christian counseling page on my website? And then that leads to, but if I do that, people who've been hurt by church won't
[00:22:04] Chris Conley: come. Right. So
[00:22:05] Whitney Owens: that's, that's a hard line. I mean, I guess you could do that and a religious.
[00:22:12] Chris Conley: Well, I think if, um, if you, if you are advertising yourself as Christian counseling, um, we used to have a practice in my area called Christian psychotherapy services.
[00:22:24] Chris Conley: And uh, I mean, like you can't be more upfront than naming your practice, Christian psychotherapy services. And that's actually where I came up and did my residency at. And I always hated the name of the practice. So thankful for the opportunity. And they let me do my internship and my residency there. And I learned a ton, but I was like, you are turning off like half of the population just by the name of your practice.
[00:22:50] Chris Conley: Um, because You know, one, it may not even be about church hurt. It could just be somebody who has a negative opinion about Christianity in general, or, you know, somebody who has a different faith or somebody who is an atheist and may not trust you just because if that's your worldview. Um, But if you were to advertise yourself as Christian as doing Christian counseling, I think it'd be important to define what that means, right?
[00:23:19] Chris Conley: Like, if I say I'm doing Christian counseling, does that mean I'm being pastoral? Like, we're going to bring out the Bible and apply it to what you're sharing with me? Because that would be like the top You know, kind of extreme of Christian counseling as you'll get together, we'll break out the Bible, see what it has to say as we work through stuff together.
[00:23:42] Chris Conley: Are you just saying that you have a set of like kind of Christian morals or worldview that you would bring in? Um, you know, so really defining what that means, just the same way as if you ask somebody what it means to be a Christian, you would get different answers. Uh, so you would definitely get different answers on what Christian counseling is.
[00:24:04] Whitney Owens: Definitely. Well, I appreciate what you're saying and conversations I've had with people, the importance of putting that on your informed consent. Like, if you're going to be overtly Christian in your sessions, you need to inform your clients about that in advance so that they can make a decision. Just like if you're going to do EMDR in a session or cognitive therapy, like we need to let clients know and they have a choice on what kind of therapy they want.
[00:24:26] Whitney Owens: And what's going to be best for them? Um, and I love how you're explaining. There is this variety, right? There's practices that are very overt. You know, we're going to call ourselves Christian, or we're going to put a Bible verse in our name. And, you know, they're meeting the needs of a certain type of client, you know, um, but then also kind of the other extreme of, like, we're not going to integrate at all.
[00:24:45] Whitney Owens: Um, you know, my practice is kind of in the middle, like. We don't market ourselves that way necessarily, but we have some faith based themes in our name and our logo. And some of the, um, things on our website, because I did want to still draw in people who had been jaded by church, maybe not even fully trauma, you know, just people had a negative experience, you know, and helping them see that Christianity actually doesn't have to look that way or be that way.
[00:25:12] Whitney Owens: Um, yeah, but I always.
[00:25:14] Chris Conley: It's niche marketing. Like if you, if you, if you are very upfront and bold that I'm a Christian counselor, and it means that I bring Christian values and the Bible into sessions, then that's a niche market. And that's cool. That's cool. Like if you, if you have enough people that want that kind of counseling, Great.
[00:25:36] Chris Conley: That's, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just being mindful that that's what you're setting yourself up for. If you market it that boldly.
[00:25:44] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Yeah. But even thinking about this conversation, talking about marketing and Google and stuff like that, I think maybe even writing some blogs on religious trauma would be probably helpful, but making sure you have someone who's trained to work with that type of population within your practice as well.
[00:26:01] Chris Conley: Yeah. And you know, because you kind of, kind of going back to the religious trauma. Angle here. It's this. It's the same way. You know, when you have somebody going through spousal abuse, I don't have the agenda necessarily of, well, we're going to try to keep you with your spouse or we're going to try to separate you from your spouse.
[00:26:19] Chris Conley: You know, so when somebody comes in with religious trauma, it's like, well, we're going to help you find your way back to the church or, oh, you have to get out of there. It's terrible. It's, it's like we do with almost every other angle in our work is I'm going to help you get some insight into how you think going to help you heal from some trauma or experiences you've been through.
[00:26:40] Chris Conley: I'm going to help you develop some coping mechanisms. I'm going to help you find some resources that you think are helpful. And then. If you stay in the marriage, awesome. If you decide to leave the marriage, best of luck. If you want to find your way back to a church, awesome. If you just don't want to go back that way, Great.
[00:26:59] Chris Conley: Best of luck. I'm not, I'm not here with an agenda for that. Um, you know, so yeah, I mean, there's just so much on this stuff I can talk about. So rain me in if you have questions or if I'm getting off track.
[00:27:12] Whitney Owens: No, I love it. Do you have any specific, um, you know, resources to recommend for people who are wanting to know more about religious trauma or favorite books or podcasts or anything like that?
[00:27:25] Chris Conley: So there is a book that I have been reading. I'm reading it for the second time right now. It's a very Christian focus, which I do always want to make sure I'm saying that because again, there's abuse and other faith traditions, and I don't want to, you know, alienate other folks. But there's this book called When Narcissism Comes to Church.
[00:27:47] Chris Conley: Um. By, gosh, the last name is DeGroat. I can't remember his first name without looking. Uh, DeGroat, D E G R O A T, when narcissism comes to church. And it, it's, it's talking specifically about, uh, pastoral positions, when, Pastor has become narcissistic or how even some church systems can elevate narcissistic leadership and how that turns into the manipulation of people or congregations and, and it talks about identifying that stuff.
[00:28:21] Chris Conley: Um, and even like, working through it and helping churches heal that have been through it. Um, there is a, there are a couple of scales out there you can use with clients. Kind of navigate where they are with these things. One is called the attitudes towards God scale.
[00:28:43] Whitney Owens: Okay.
[00:28:45] Chris Conley: And then, um, the other one, the name of it is escaping me, but the author is Dan Coke.
[00:28:52] Chris Conley: K. O. C. H. he has a spiritual abuse harm scale that you can look up and it also so those are a couple of metrics you can use in the therapy room even help us. That's. Um, or determine, you know, the attitude towards God scale is going to. Help somebody see, you know, how they're feeling about their personal faith or relationship with their God.
[00:29:14] Chris Conley: Maybe in light of what they've experienced and the spiritual harm and abuse scale will kind of help normalize like, Hey, you've been through these experiences, like that's not okay. Or, or normal that that may be abusive or manipulative. Now, of course, there's lots of nuances with that because different churches and faith communities have different doctrines and beliefs and practices where, you know, something I might consider to be inappropriate and like, well, this is what my church teaches.
[00:29:46] Chris Conley: Um, and so it can be kind of hard to navigate those. So you have to be mindful of that when you're working with clients, you know? So, you know, I think about some, sometimes you may have somebody come in and, you know, Oh, I'm supposed as a woman, maybe I'm supposed to submit to my husband. My church teaches.
[00:30:03] Chris Conley: Submission to the men. I personally would not be super on board with that as a blank statement for everybody. However, if that's what this person's church teaches them, and it's not causing them distress, and they, like, are on board with it, then that's where, like, not bringing our own stuff into it is important.
[00:30:23] Chris Conley: Like, I'm not gonna set the agenda. You know, to say, well, I don't know, I don't know if you should submit to the men in your church. That sounds, you know, it sounds a little antiquated to me, um, but they might be working fine for them and it may not be problematic for them.
[00:30:37] Whitney Owens: Hmm. It's gotcha. It's just so funny how therapists feel the need to set them straight.
[00:30:43] Whitney Owens: Set client straight about religious stuff, but you use the example of politics. And if a client came in my office and said, I voted for this person, I would not be like, well, that wasn't a good decision for you to make. Maybe you should rethink it for this person. Like we would never do that. We do it with religious stuff.
[00:30:58] Chris Conley: I think, well, I think for Christian therapists. Particularly, and again, it depends on the branch of Christianity you fall under, I suppose. But many Christians, you know, have that drive of evangelism, or I'm supposed to, you know, set you on the right path. And so, Therapy room is just not the place for
[00:31:21] Whitney Owens: that.
[00:31:23] Chris Conley: I've had, I've had conversations with therapists where I'm like, your church needs you to do that. Maybe your community needs you to do that. Your office place doesn't need you to do that.
[00:31:34] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Hmm. That is how I started my career. I thought I was going to save everybody in the therapy room. God sent me straight.
[00:31:43] Chris Conley: Yeah, I've, I've been there, I've been there when I was younger, for sure, not, not quite as much as taking a religious agenda into it, but yeah, all of us therapists, if we're a good therapist, we've had a little bit of a savior complex at one point or another.
[00:32:00] Whitney Owens: Well, I'm glad that you're pointing it out for us because we need to be thinking about that for sure.
[00:32:05] Whitney Owens: Yeah.
[00:32:05] Chris Conley: Yeah. This is what I use.
[00:32:06] Whitney Owens: Yeah.
[00:32:07] Chris Conley: But I say, I even encourage the Christian therapist. I'm like, if you really believe that God is looking out for and taking care of everybody, and he has positioned you to be this person's therapist, and he wants you to be their therapist, and he will provide the spiritual teacher, or church, or whatever, the more helps.
[00:32:28] Whitney Owens: That's right. That's right. We didn't go to school and get a master's divinity. We got a master's in counseling.
[00:32:33] Chris Conley: Correct.
[00:32:34] Whitney Owens: Same thing for pastors. They need to be referring to us when there's clinical stuff going on.
[00:32:39] Chris Conley: Yep. Absolutely. There's a lot of room for networking with churches in your community. If, if you live in a community where that would, you know, be harmonious as a community.
[00:32:50] Chris Conley: Great opportunity. It's one of my favorite things to do. Anytime a pastor or church calls and says, Hey, would you mind like coming and talking to our people or doing a workshop? If I can make it happen, I make it happen because I know that partnership is so important.
[00:33:05] Whitney Owens: Yeah. I love that. I enjoy doing that as well.
[00:33:08] Whitney Owens: Well, this conversation has been great. Um, the guy's name is Chuck the grout.
[00:33:13] Chris Conley: Yes, I think so.
[00:33:15] Whitney Owens: Yeah. I know it's the grout.
[00:33:16] Chris Conley: Okay. Yup. Then it's Chuck.
[00:33:18] Whitney Owens: Yeah. I was looking at the book. I just added it to my, uh, Amazon cart because it looks really great.
[00:33:23] Chris Conley: So last time I looked, it was free on audible. If you have an audible subscription,
[00:33:28] Whitney Owens: that is what I saw as well.
[00:33:32] Whitney Owens: So awesome. Well, Chris, this has been great. Um, if anybody wants to follow up with you, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?
[00:33:38] Chris Conley: Uh, honestly, the best way, just find me on Facebook, Chris Conley, um, send me a DM, add me as a friend. Love to connect with anybody who wants to connect.
[00:33:49] Whitney Owens: Awesome. Well, thank you for your time today and hanging out with me and I appreciate it.
[00:33:53] Chris Conley: All right. Thank you, Whitney.
[00:34:18] Whitney Owens: Special thanks to Marty Altman for the music in this podcast. The Wise Practice Podcast is part of the Sitecraft Podcast Network, a collaboration of independent podcasters focused on helping people live more meaningful and productive lives. To learn more about the other amazing podcasts in the network, head on over to sitecraftnetwork.
[00:34:37] Whitney Owens: com. The Wise Practice Podcast represents the opinions of Whitney Owens and her guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only, and the content should not be taken as legal advice. If you have legal questions, please consult an attorney.
