WP110 | Mindful Race Talk in Private Practice with Dr. Nathalie Edmond
Ready to infuse your practice with meaningful change? In this powerful episode of the Wise Practice Podcast, Dr. Edmond dives deep into the intersection of anti-racism, mindfulness, and mental health. From decoding cues of safety and danger to tackling systemic inequalities, Dr. Edmond shares practical insights to foster inclusivity in your relationships, business, and life. Whether you’re a practice owner, a mental health professional, or someone passionate about creating a just and equitable world, this episode is your call to action—don’t miss it!
Anti-Racism and Embracing Humanity’s Interconnectedness
Dr. Edmond reflects on her journey into anti-racism, noting that her commitment deepened in 2016, spurred by her faith community's work on racial justice and the mainstream emergence of the term anti-racism. She describes integrating her spiritual practice with racial justice, emphasizing the inherent worth of every being and the interconnectedness of humanity. This exploration led her to books, workshops, and active participation in Black Lives Matter discussions, culminating in a full-time dedication to anti-racism consulting by 2020.
Dr. Edmond now incorporates anti-racism into all facets of her life—parenting, relationships, business, mental health, and more. She emphasizes balancing cultural awareness with personalizing client care, advocating for understanding broad cultural principles while recognizing the individual experiences within identities. She highlights that no group is monolithic, urging sensitivity to diversity even within shared identities like Christianity. This nuanced approach underscores the importance of blending knowledge with empathy to respect each person's unique journey.
Dr. Edmond explores how human nature often inclines us to gravitate toward those who are similar and to "other" what feels unfamiliar, stemming from ignorance shaped by limited experiences. She highlights that race, as a social construct, was historically fabricated to assign superiority to certain groups, particularly those with lighter skin. This construct fueled systems of oppression like enslavement, colonization, and the marginalization of indigenous peoples. Acknowledging this history, Dr. Edmond emphasizes the importance of recognizing and respecting differences without attaching value judgments to them.
She discusses the value of dialectical thinking, particularly through Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), which encourages holding multiple truths. For example, one can honor their own cultural identity while also appreciating and learning from others. She shares personal growth moments, like reevaluating her preference for punctuality, and questions whose standards are deemed "better," especially when power dynamics influence norms.
Navigating Safety and Curiosity in Race Conversations
Dr. Edmond underscores the role of mindfulness in addressing race-related conversations, emphasizing the importance of becoming aware of our nervous system's visceral responses—like fear or discomfort—when encountering unfamiliar situations. Instead of reacting defensively or shutting down, she advocates turning toward these feelings with curiosity, seeking understanding over judgment. This mindful approach creates space for deeper connection and more meaningful conversations about race and diversity.
Dr. Edmond emphasizes the concept of cues of safety and cues of danger as essential in understanding human interactions. Cues of safety arise from perceived similarities, like shared schools, jobs, or social connections, which foster trust and comfort. In contrast, cues of danger reflect moments when individuals, particularly marginalized groups, sense potential harm or misinterpretation based on stereotypes or systemic biases. As a Black woman, she reflects on navigating situations where authenticity feels unsafe due to the likelihood of being misunderstood or subjected to microaggressions.
A Two-Tiered Approach to Multiculturalism, Equity, and Systemic Change
In her book, Dr. Edmond explores how everyone unconsciously processes these cues and advocates for a two-tiered approach to addressing these dynamics. First, fostering curiosity and conversations about multiculturalism—recognizing and appreciating similarities and differences—lays the groundwork for connection. The next, deeper level involves addressing power, privilege, and systemic inequalities by dismantling the structures that perpetuate oppression and racism.
Dr. Edmond stresses that societal systems can and should be reimagined to better support equity and collective care, moving beyond a simplistic acknowledgment of unfairness to actively building a more just society.
Dr. Edmond underscores the importance of self-reflection as the first step in fostering inclusivity and dismantling systemic oppression. She encourages individuals to interrogate their identities, visible symbols (like art, flags, and décor), and how these elements signal either safety or danger to others. For instance, a rainbow flag might offer comfort to LGBTQ+ individuals but could feel neutral or even alienating to others depending on their beliefs or biases. She also emphasizes the significance of representation in professional settings, such as websites or marketing materials, and how these choices reflect inclusivity or exclusion.
Navigating Power, Privilege, and Authentic Conversations About Race
Dr. Edmond stresses the need to move beyond surface-level conversations about multiculturalism to address systemic issues like power, privilege, and oppression. She highlights the harm caused by assumptions and misidentifications, such as conflating identities or cultures, and the importance of learning about individuals’ unique backgrounds. Mistakes are inevitable, but she emphasizes the value of owning them, apologizing, and making reparations instead of gaslighting or deflecting.
In working with predominantly white practice owners, Dr. Edmond encourages fostering dialogue about race not just with BIPOC individuals but also among white colleagues and clients. She emphasizes the diversity within white communities and the need to address cultural values like meritocracy and Protestant work ethic, which often stem from a Eurocentric worldview. These values can influence workplace culture, potentially leading to environments that prioritize profit over people.
Ultimately, Dr. Edmond advocates for authentic community building and collective liberation. She highlights the need to tailor conversations about race to individuals’ stages of racial identity development, meeting people where they are to foster mutual understanding. Her vision includes creating relationships that can hold difficult conversations and support a more equitable, inclusive world—what she calls a "beloved community" or "heaven on earth" for all beings, human and non-human alike.
Show Sponsor Mastermind Groups
Are you a small group practice owner who wants to level up your practice, but you’re terrified of making mistakes, or are just uncertain of the next steps to take? If you're ready to go from feeling overwhelmed to owning your role as a confident, organized boss, then it's time to join an exclusive mastermind group, beginning in January 2025.
Imagine being able to communicate seamlessly with your team, having a process in place to hire and onboard with ease, and finally finding smart solutions for managing your office space needs. You'll learn how to balance seeing therapy clients while building systems, and, most importantly, step into the role of a true leader.
In this 6-month mastermind, you can expect live Zoom meetings every other week, access to the Wise Practice Membership Community, and access to Amy Dover between meetings as well as discounts on individual consultation calls while in the group.
Whether you’ve just made your first hire or are already managing a team, this group will give you the tools, guidance, and support to build a practice that thrives.
Head on over to wisepracticeconsulting.com/masterminds to schedule a call and sign up for the group. Wise Practice community members will receive $100 off per month for the mastermind group. This group is limited to only 8 participants and you must sign up by January 3rd, so don’t delay.
Start the new year off with like-minded practice owners who want to grow and make 2025 the best year yet for your practice!
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[00:00:00] Amy Dover: Hey guys, I'm Amy Dover, Group Practice Owner and WISe Practice Consultant. Are you a small group practice owner who wants to level up your practice, but you're terrified of making mistakes, or you're just uncertain of the next steps to take? If you're ready to go from feeling overwhelmed to owning your role as a confident, organized boss, then it's time to join my exclusive Mastermind group beginning in January of 2025.
Imagine being able to communicate seamlessly with your team, having a process in place to hire and onboard with ease, and finally finding smart solutions for managing your office space needs. You're also going to learn how to balance seeing therapy clients while building systems. But most importantly, you'll learn to step into the role of a true leader in the six month mastermind.
You can expect live zoom meetings every other week access to the wise practice membership community and access to me between meetings as well as discounts on individual consultation calls while in the group, whether you just made your first hire or you're a new hire. We're already managing a team.
This group will give you the tools, guidance, and support to build a practice that thrives. Head on over to wisepracticeconsulting. com backslash masterminds to schedule a call with me and sign up for the group. WisePractice community members will receive a hundred dollars off per month for the mastermind group.
That's an awesome deal. This group is limited to only eight participants, and you must sign up by January 3rd, so don't delay. Start the new year off with like minded practice owners who want to grow, and let's make 2025 the best year yet for your practice. Hi, I'm Whitney
[00:01:36] Whitney Owens: Owens. I'm a group practice owner and faith based practice consultant, and I'm here to tell you that you can have it all.
Want to grow your practice? Want to grow your faith? Want to enjoy your life outside of work? You've come to the right place. Each week on the Wise Practice Podcast, I will give you the action steps to have a successful faith based practice while also having a good time. Now, let's get started.
[00:02:02] Jingle: Where she grows your practice, she don't play.
She does business with a twist of faith. It's Whitney Owens and the Wise Practice Podcast, Whitney Owens and the Wise Practice Podcast.
[00:02:21] Whitney Owens: Hello, and thanks for hanging out with me today on the Wise Practice Podcast. This episode is so good. It was very insightful, good for my soul, and also Good for me to think about some things. We interviewed Dr. Natalie Edmond, who I've known for quite some time now, and she came out with a book on mindful race talk, so she shouldn't talk about that, and just the importance of these conversations within our private practice and within our world.
Especially as Christians. So I'm looking forward to sharing that episode with you today. I have a few other things I wanted to talk about for just a minute before we get started into the episode. We are hitting the end of the year. What? That's so great. And if you're anything like me, I'm looking forward to the holidays with a little bit slower pace of work.
But, as we kind of are gearing up for that, we're also gearing up for January. So Which is an exciting time. We're building our practices. So even though we're slowing down, we're also being proactive, thinking about steps we want to take going into 2025. That is why we are launching mastermind groups within WISe Practice Consulting.
I do love offering mastermind groups because It helps you get all the content that you need. You get to grow your practice with other faith based therapists. But you're also doing it for a little bit better price point, maybe, as you're growing your practice as opposed to the individual consulting. So I feel like mastermind groups are like a win win for everyone.
I grew so much through mastermind groups. In fact, that's how I started my practice. I got all the way to eight therapists while I was in mastermind groups. I did mastermind groups for two years. I would not be where I am today if I had not had a mastermind group when I was starting my group practice.
Now, mastermind groups can be for any phase of practice. You're with like minded people working on something together. So it could be solo practice owners starting the practice together, marketing together, or maybe it's larger group practices working on systems and processes in their practice. So within the WISePractice community, we like to offer different places for practice centers to go to and different mastermind groups.
So mastermind groups do meet every other week on Zoom. They have a very specific focus to your phase of practice, and they typically last about six months. Sometimes it can be longer or shorter, but that gives you an idea of what a mastermind group is. We are running two mastermind groups starting in January.
One is going to be led by WISePractice consultant David Sturgis, and it's specifically for those practice centers that are starting and growing a solo based practice. This is the stuff we did not learn in graduate school. How do I market my practice? How do I get my ideal client? How do I actually make enough revenue so I can support my family?
Typically, the people that do this group, I've seen someone have five clients go to 15 to 20 clients a week by the end of the group. So if that's something that you have a goal to do, or maybe you have a full caseload and you're just figuring out what systems do I use in my practice? How do I not work so much?
This group would be for you. And then we also have another group led by a wife practice consultant, Amy Dover, and that's for small group practice owners. So people who maybe have just hired their first therapist or two, and they're figuring out how do I actually run a group? Like I finally hired someone, but now what do I do?
How do I know what systems to use for a group practice? How do I delegate? How do I communicate with my team? Am I paying them the right amount so that I know that the business is making profit? How do I manage the money in my practice? all those questions are going to be answered in that mastermind group, and it will run in the same fashion every other week on zoom, and both consultants, either group that you're in, you have access to them between groups to answer quick questions and move you forward.
So if any of that sounds remotely, like what you're looking for and growing your practice in 2025. I want to encourage you to head to wisepracticeconsulting. com slash masterminds. There you will get all the details. And then if you still have questions, you can schedule a consult call with either David or Amy or myself, because we want to make sure that you feel comfortable about that group.
So head on over to the website, Learn about the mastermind groups. You can fill out an application. We'll be in touch with you so that we can schedule that call. I am so excited as well for you listening to this episode. And so we're going to jump in and talk about how to have mindful conversations in your private practice.
I'm excited to introduce you to Natalie Edmond, who's a licensed clinical psychologist, an experienced mindfulness and yoga teacher. Specializing in the treatment of trauma and integrating anti racism and anti oppression into our clinical work and leadership work. She recently published the book, Mindful Race Talk, Building Literacy, Fluency, and Agility, to help promote healthy exploration and dialogue about race and racism in our world.
She sees racial justice as a spiritual practice and is focused on collective liberation. She owns a group practice in New Jersey, is an anti racism consultant, and director of a college counseling center. Thanks for coming on the show, Natalie. I'm glad to have, thanks for having me here. I'm so glad to be here.
Thanks, Whitney. Oh, yeah, of course. And wow, you're really fitting it in. I'm like, look, like, that's like a goal of mine one day. And I'm like, you're doing all these things, but that's so exciting. It's
[00:07:55] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: so funny because the book wasn't even on my to do list, but I just felt there's so much polarization in our country and I feel like we just need to gather together and talk and have really hard conversations, which requires skillfulness and mindfulness and how can I get it right?
into a book so people can be talking about it in their in their groups and their teams and their practices and their faith communities. And so that's what I hope the book does.
[00:08:24] Whitney Owens: Great. Well, I'm so glad to have you on the show because I know you're a wealth of information. I always learn something new when I'm chatting with you.
And so before We kind of go into all that. Could you first share how you started kind of your anti racism consulting, how this birthed within you so people kind of better understand what you're talking about?
[00:08:43] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: Yeah, yeah. So I would say that my Most recent, recent commitment to anti racism probably started in 2016.
I feel like I've been in and out of it my whole life, but I feel like the church community or faith community I was, I was in, I continue to be in, was doing a lot of work around racial justice when the word anti racism was starting to come into the mainstream and. I was really inspired by them, like how do you intersect your spiritual practice with racial justice and how do you kind of respect the inherent worth and dignity of every being and connect that to the ways we're interconnected while also Us all being on a journey of figuring out like, what is this?
What's our purpose and what's bigger than us. And then I just started to read a lot of books and go to a lot of workshops, which I had done before, but it felt different that time. And it just, you know, we saw a lot of different Black Lives Matter kind of conversations happening that just intensified in 2020 and 2020 was when I really like, I'm a dedicated full time to anti racism consulting.
And now I weave it into every single part of my life. Parenting, relationships, business, counseling center, mental health, everything. It's, I can't, I can't live without it now. Mm hmm.
[00:10:08] Whitney Owens: Yeah, so important. I love that you first kind of talked about the faith community. Like Yeah, we all need to have the appropriate talk, but I think gosh, within the faith community, you know, and what a symbol of kind of heaven, you know, and on earth, we're going to have a beloved community.
Yeah, a lot of diversity in heaven, you know, let's yeah,
[00:10:30] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: yeah, absolutely.
[00:10:32] Whitney Owens: Yeah, we actually had a diversity training here at the practice, like, 2 weeks ago, you know, William Hemphill. Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And he's, you know, a good friend of mine as well and close by. So he was able to travel down and do a training with us and it was really great.
So this is such important conversation for all of us and especially private practice owners.
[00:10:53] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: Absolutely. Yeah, because our world is only getting more and more multicultural. So how do we develop the skills that many of us aren't taught, right? Of like different cultures and different identities. And what if I don't agree with that kind of life or that kind of identity or that?
I don't understand that culture, that religion. What is a way that I can shop with curiosity versus shame and judgment and cancelling?
[00:11:20] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Well, maybe we should just start right there and I'm going to give you all my questions here today. Even hearing you say that, you know, as a white woman, I'm like, how do I know?
What do I do to get educated? You know, and this whole concept of our clients, our clients educate us. That's actually part of our clinical relationship. You know, anything that they would bring to the table, we can say, hey, tell me more about your family or, you Tell me more about this, but at the same time, it's another job to educate us on certain issues.
And so I'd love to kind of hear your perspective on what do we do as therapists to educate ourselves? And then what do we do when we don't understand when our clients are bringing something into the room?
[00:12:02] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, great question. I, I love the, the dialectic or the You were naming around what's the balance of Asking a client for more information versus having them educate you, right?
Because one guideline, I prefer guidelines versus rules because I feel like right away, you know, sometimes we get into trouble with the rules because they could be inflexible. Because I think one guideline is to be able to know enough about a culture. Or identity to have like broad strokes. These are things I should consider.
[00:12:38] Jingle: Right.
[00:12:39] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: And then with the client asking them for their own personal experience within that identity, because it may fit with your general conceptions or it may not. Right. That none of us is a monolithic group, right? We all have to, even within Christianity, there's lots of. diversity and multiculturalism within that around the world.
And so how do we, we might know principles of Christianity, but then how does it apply to actually this person?
[00:13:07] Whitney Owens: That is such a great example, right? Cause if I have a Catholic client come in, yeah, I know the root of Catholicism and what it's about, but just because I know that doesn't mean they're praying to certain saints necessarily.
They might practice Catholicism in a different kind of way. Right. Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about some of the maybe ignorances or lack of understanding of people in race conversations. I'm sure you have probably a lot of knowledge to share here of different experiences that you've seen or just kind of flow with that.
And I'd love to talk about that some more.
[00:13:44] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: Yeah. I mean, I, I guess I think about that we as human beings, you know, I think, Tend to gravitate to people who are more similar to us. Right. And I think that's human nature, right? I think that our brain kind of automatically. Others, things that are unfamiliar, right?
And I, and so I think it's so much of this is like, if we, if we start to embrace that, we're all ignorant about something or many things just because we don't have the experiences, right? Like if I grew up, if I was a white person and I only grew up around other white people, Then, like, how would I get the experience and the knowledge about people who are different than me, right?
If I grew up in a wealthy area and I've never met someone from a, you know, lower, um, socioeconomic status, I might not understand that there are different cultures. Right. Um, within different, different levels of wealth or poverty. So I think about with race, you know, I think about race as a social construction.
It's made up, right. People, you know, hundreds of years made this up, right. And unfortunately, the way that they made it up was that certain people were identified as better than other people, right. Particularly people who had white or lighter skin pigmentation were viewed as better than people who were more melanated, black and brown skins, right?
And that kind of propelled us into, you know, centuries of enslavement and, you know, you know, moving indigenous people or eradicating indigenous people from various different lands, like colonization and stuff like that. And so I think we can learn from that history, right? Is that how do we acknowledge differences without saying that one is better than the other?
And I, I don't know if that's natural that the human brain just says, you know, I have to, I have to other or make justify like why my way of doing things is better. And one of the ways I'm drawn to DBT, dialectical behavior therapies, I love that it holds multiple truths, right? Like, how can I be passionate about something?
Or have a really strong cultural identity, but that doesn't mean that my way is the only way. It's just the way that I prefer, the only way I've ever known, and how do we make room and celebrate difference, right? Learning from different cultures, different rituals, different ways of being, different, you know, something silly, like, you know, like, different time orientation, right?
That that's cultural, right? Some people like to run really on time and other people don't like to run on time. And who gets to say that running on time is better than not running on time. And that, you know, that's, that's been a growing edge for me, right. Is that I was someone who like always ran on time and then I didn't understand why, how people could be like a half hour, an hour, two hours late.
But it was like, well, who gets to say that my version is. Is better than another person. It's just different. Even if, even if more people who have power say that that's the right way. And I think, I think that's what makes conversations hard. So why it's called mindful race talk is that I think that we have a nerve, a nervous system response, like it's visceral when we feel afraid, when, um, we feel out of our element, when things are foreign and, and that fear in our bodies.
Makes us do things that push people away that tries to shut it down. And I think we need to be more aware of that bodily reaction, right? To know that I could be afraid, but that doesn't mean that there's actually danger, right? It could just be that it's something unusual, something different, something that makes me uncomfortable.
And what do we do when we feel uncomfortable? What do we do when we feel afraid? How can we turn towards each other and seek understanding versus assuming you're wrong and let me tell you all the reasons you're wrong,
[00:17:40] Whitney Owens: taking the time to develop that insight about ourselves, which sadly, people don't do enough of, but as therapists, Hey, we really need to be on the top edge of this.
I really appreciate what you said at the beginning about how people gravitate towards people like them. And just the idea that we really miss out on so much acting that way. And I even remember talking about this in graduate school because I, my professor, his name was David Benner. I don't know if you've heard of him.
He's an author as well. He has a book where he talks about practicing spiritual disciplines, but they're not your typical ones. And so that 1 of the disciplines, he says, in the book is otherness, practicing otherness and the idea that when we go to a party, we introduce ourselves to someone. We're constantly looking for how are they like me?
You know, well, how old are you? Where do your kids go to school? Where are you located? You know, what kind of work do you do? Instead of looking for how is this person different from me and how can I learn from them? And that was like total game changer for me because I realized that that's exactly what I do.
[00:18:43] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah, I think, I think that's like the part of what I'm talking about in the book is cues of safety versus cues of danger. Right. And so I think of like cues of safety is like, how are we similar? Like, do we go to the same school? Do we have the same job? Do we know the same people?
Right. And like how, how it's so important to have cues of safety. And on the flip side is how do we notice when we are similar. exhibiting cues of danger to people, right? So part of what I talk about in the book is what are cues of safety for me as a black woman, but what are cues of danger? Right. What are the ways in which I think, Oh, I should not be really authentic when talking to this person, because they're likely to misinterpret me, to put me in a box that they put other black women of whatever stereotypes they might have, or they're unlikely to experience a micro, or, you know, it's just not safe.
And so thinking about all of us are kind of doing that, even if we're not processing it to that level and. I think what I'm most concerned about that I talk about in the book is first, we have to talk with, just talk about curiosity, like multiculturalism, but then the next level is actually talking about power, privilege, and the ways in which our systems are built with all these isms, and how do we dismantle the oppression and the racism, which is a different level of conversation.
So first we have to just talk about. You know, how are we the same and how are we different? And how do we make room for all of us? And then we have to dismantle the ways in which society isn't equal. And I don't mean just life isn't fair for sure, but like, there are ways that we could better take care of each other.
[00:20:33] Whitney Owens: Yeah, I'm realizing within, within myself, if I had heard you say that years ago, I probably would have written it off. Right? Because I would have been like, I don't want to deal with the fact that someone feels like I'm not safe or that someone feels unsafe in conversations. Right? Because it's like, we don't want to deal with that within ourselves.
But the truth is lots of people feel unsafe and lots of conversations. And we've got to be cognizant of what are we bringing to the table that makes someone feel unsafe? Right. You know, so I think about that even as a practice owner and as a therapist when someone different from me is in my therapy room.
So, curious what you would say as far as how do we create more safety for conversations where people feel like they can talk to us. They won't experience a microaggression or something else when they're talking to us. How do we create that?
[00:21:22] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: Yeah, I think first step is self reflection, like really interrogating yourself, like what are all the identities you have?
What are visible to other people? What are the things you have in your room? Right? What's the art you decide to display? Right? Like I think about, you know, how some places have rainbow flags, right? And who is that for? Right. Is it for everybody or is it for a certain person who might feel like, Oh, there's safety here because I see a rainbow flag and that represents, you know, someone who is queer affirming or LGBTQ friendly.
And I think about, you know, you can see, you might be able to see, like, I have this picture behind me of a black woman with dreads and it says we, the people, right. And so that gives comfort to some people. There's a tree of life. That used to be where like a picture of my book is now, but now it's like on the side here and that brings comfort, comfort to some people, right?
And it's probably danger to other people who might have certain like connotations about these things. And so I think about what we, so what's on our walls, what's on our website, what's on our brochures. Like something I look at when I go to people's websites is, do you have any people of color on your website?
Is, or is it only white people and is it only thin white people? Right. And then I think, are you fat phobic? You know, am I going to experience microaggressions around my body size? Right. So I think about who is your ideal client and how is that represented? I think about, do people ask to ask questions around race?
And culture and or do they just make assumptions like identify as black? My parents are both from Haiti and so when, when I say that I identify as black and that people reference me as African American, I feel not heard. Because, because I said I was identified as black and African American to me as a particular culture and a particular kind of like descendants of chattel slavery or, and so I think about, well, there's some like lack of discernment there around identity.
I just, I kind of think around, like, if you were seeing someone who is Asian American, right, there's 50 different countries. In the Asian diaspora and all these different languages. And how are we taking the time to understand which country are you from? Are both your parents from there? What's the language?
What's what generation are you? Because how many times do Asian people get confused or misidentified as a country of origin, that's not their country. Right. And so thinking about what are the ways in which we can take better care, To learn, and that doesn't mean we can't make mistakes. Right. It's not about perfection.
We're going to make mistakes, but when you make a mistake, do you own it? Yep. Right. Do you apologize? Do you make a repair or do you, or do you make it about the other person? Do you gaslight? Do you say like, Oh, you're too sensitive or, or do you make a joke about it? And I think those are the ways in which you cause harm.
Cause it's like, we're going to mess up. Right. But if we're in relationship, maybe we give each other grace, especially if we're saying, yeah, yeah, I messed up there. I'm going to do better.
[00:24:42] Whitney Owens: I love that you said that. That is so important. So you kind of started talking about the next level of like conversations about privilege and power.
And I would love to know more specifically maybe for practice owners or group owners, like how do we have those conversations? What does that look like? And In our areas. Yeah,
[00:25:01] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: yeah. Well, I think something working with a lot of practice owners and most of them are, you know, white and are in predominantly white spaces.
And the thing I'm always trying to convince them is that we have to be able to talk about race, even with our white colleagues and clients that sometimes when we think about race, it's like, oh, I need to be able to talk about it with with BIPOC people or people of the global majority. And then we exclude white people, but there's a lot of stuff.
I think white people need to talk to other white people about related to race. Right. And that white people are diverse as well. So how do we better understand where they come from? I mean, I think, I think clearly the country is divided because 50 percent votes for one person and 50 percent votes for the other person.
So. We can't lump everybody together, so how do we better understand their pain points, right? And the ways in which they maybe understand the world. And I even think of something in terms of Protestant work ethic or meritocracy, which is so much part of the United States culture and how much of that is driven from like a, a white Eurocentric worldview.
And it'd be great to know if our clients, if our, if our clinicians or employees, contractors, if they also buy into that and the ways in which we as cactus owners could create an environment that leads to staff wellbeing and retention, or that is a, is oppressive. Right. Like that people don't really feel seen or valued.
I think like when I think of like some of the tenants of white supremacy culture, which I think of as ways in which maybe we prioritize profit and transaction over people and relationships. And when you're a stressed practice owner, it can be hard maybe to focus on the relationship. Right. What do you need and what does your employee need and how do we work together so that we both benefit?
And I think so much of this is community building and I think true authentic relationships can, can hold difficult conversations. And I think about when talking with clients, regardless of their identity, I, what I talk about in the book is knowing where people are in their racial identity development so that if someone is already committed to anti racism and exploring their whiteness, that I'm going to have a different conversation with them than someone who doesn't think race is a thing, is more colorblind, has, has hung out with primarily other white people their entire life.
I'm going to have a different conversation with them about race, because if I don't match my language to kind of their worldview and what they're thinking about, we're likely not going to stay in a relationship too long, because they're probably going to feel like I don't get them, and that I'm trying to force something on them, versus I'm trying to get everybody free.
I'm working towards collective liberation and building beloved community heaven on earth, and that includes every single human being and non human beings as well.
[00:28:14] Whitney Owens: Beloved community on earth. I'm resonating with so many things you're saying, and I, I love that you're kind of flipping some things over this idea that actually white people probably need to talk to white people more often.
I don't know if I would have thought of it like that. And even within me, I get like, nervous. Because I'm scared to talk to my co workers or to other practice centers because maybe I do have a different perspective and I'm scared about being shunned or pushed away or, but I would actually say my biggest fear is that they're actually not going to listen, you know, because I think I'm saying something pretty important.
I would love to know, what would you say to someone like me? That's feeling that way? That's feeling like I do want to have these conversations. Transcribed Or I'll also say, I have these conversations with people and it's dadgum exhausting, like how many times do I have to show you how uninsightful you are, you know, how many times do I keep working on educating this person on their racism, honestly, but that's, that's hard.
[00:29:18] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: Yeah, yeah. And I think that speaks to what's the role of of allies or accomplices or co conspirators, right? Is like, are you willing to take on the risk and the exhaustion and sit with the fear and do it anyway, right? Because you are doing something to amplify the voices of people who are not in the room.
Right. And I think that's why I love working to build white accomplices, right. To build the skill and the agility, right. There's a reason why I have literacy, fluency, and agility, right. As you can know, you can know about race, racism, and the history. But then are you fluent or do you get silent or do you only talk about it in one way like a hammer, right?
Are you, is it hard for you to be curious about how did this other person get to this understanding, right? They're not alone in their understanding, right? And there's very legit reasons why they believe what they believe. And maybe there are multiple truths or, or maybe we don't need to convince people of things, but we can stay in conversation.
And then agility is like, how do I adapt? How do I take care of myself? How do I change the language that I use depending on who I'm talking about? What season of life it is, what's going on. And I think, I think if anti racism was easy, everybody would be doing it.
[00:30:43] Whitney Owens: Yes. Yes. And so much of this is the essence of our faith.
You were just talking about giving a voice to those that aren't in the room. I mean, that's, that's what we do as Christians.
[00:30:54] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I think it's so important to have some bigger cause, right? Some bigger reason to sit in the fear or to sit in the frustration, if you are thinking about building beloved community on earth, or you're thinking about, I want to make this world better for the next generation, right?
Which means that I need to invest time and energy into having these conversations, or at least implementing policies
So maybe we don't need, maybe that's finding the bridges, right, is how does this law or procedure or school initiative help our community? Maybe I don't need to explain to you all the racist undertones. I just need to, like, find a way for you to connect to it. That's the agility.
[00:31:49] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Um, I love those different pieces that you're bringing there.
Is there anything else that is in the book that you wanted to make sure to mention today?
[00:31:57] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: I have a whole chapters around how to be more interpersonally effective, right? So part one is about mindfulness foundations. Having some sort of regular practice that helps you go inside, check out what's there, notice your body, notice the ways in which you, what your relationship is to conflict, and like, how can we do better and have healthier conflict, part two is all about the racial literacy, like how do we better understand power and privilege and identities and.
The racial hierarchy in the United States and then chapter about microaggressions and what they are and then like how we can disrupt it. And then part 3 is all about integration and agility. So how do we have these conversations? How do we have them effectively? How do we prioritize, like, what's important in this conversation?
And what I love about the book is that it's not written just for white people. It's written for everyone, because we all have a role to play in this. And that, you know, as a Black woman, I have had to learn how to not be quiet, how to name when I feel hurt by something someone has said or done, or how to have, how to name racism when it happens, because I, it's sometimes easier to just ignore.
Right. It's easier not to say something and then maybe never talk to that person again, or, or harbor it inside and be resentful. And I don't want that to be part of my life anymore. I want there really to be like honest communication, even when it's hard. And then, and then I kind of have a chapter about racism isn't everything in our society.
If we're looking in the right ways. If we're understanding the history, and so whatever you are passionate about, there's anti racism work that can be done
[00:33:43] Whitney Owens: always. Yeah. When you were talking, I was thinking this book sounds perfect for everyone. Well, I have another little side question. We wrap up. Um, I would love to get any kind of feedback, encouragement on how to bring more diverse team members.
Into the practice. This has just been a struggle for me as a practice owner, and I'll take any kind of thoughts that you have on that.
[00:34:10] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: Yeah, yeah, I hear that a lot from practice owners. It's a tough one. I think, I think the, the pool of, of mental health providers who are particularly racially. Minoritize is small, just because the field I think is, you know, the, the number of clinicians who graduate and get licensed does not represent the demographics of the United States, which, you know, I would, I would offer that those are racist outcomes, right?
It's like, what, what's happening in our field, what are the barriers or roadblocks that makes it difficult for there to be more representation, which is a whole other conversation. But then I think about. You know, what would be attractive in your practice? Right. What would, what would resonate? How would someone feel included or a place of belonging?
I think when I've tried to hire, I've tried to hire two at a time so that, so that they are not onboarding by themselves. Because if you're one of the, if you're the only of a particular identity, it can be challenging. Yeah. It's really great to have somebody to be able to talk to. But I also think about like, Depending on geography, there just might not be a really big pool.
Right. And so I think sometimes practice owners are really scratching their head when it's just the pool is really small, right? So it might be starting with interns, right. And seeing, you know, can you diversify that pool? And then they see how amazing your practices and then they want to stay on after they graduate and get licensed and stuff, and, and then I think about how are we building relationships with.
With different programs, with different schools, with, or how are we partnering with other practices that maybe are created specifically to treat minoritized population? And are there ways in which there's synergy or work that can happen together? Like, how can your practice be seen as an ally or accomplice in the community, building those relationships, maybe with different faith communities?
And then people are like, Oh, Oh, I get that practice. Like that's a cool place to be. And then they, the word starts to spread. Yeah.
[00:36:25] Whitney Owens: You can be a lot of things to just sit here and think about. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm obviously in the South, so it makes even more challenging, sadly. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, great. Okay.
Well, the book is going to be in the show notes that y'all can find it and get a hold of it. It's mindful race talk. And then, Natalie, you also have a membership community. Can you talk a little bit about that and how people can get involved? Oh, yeah, thanks so
[00:36:49] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: much. Yeah, so there's a lot of ways to connect with me.
So I have a newsletter I send out a couple times a month, which is free content for people wanting to build their literacy, fluency and agility. Um, And then I have anti racism revolution, which is my membership community, which I created that in 2022, um, as a way for us to have deeper and longer conversations about being racial beings and working towards collective liberation.
So it's primarily where I do my workshops. So I offer probably like two or three workshops a month, um, different times. And it's great because people get to know each other. They celebrate each other. They struggle with each other and they're digesting the content of our world and the issues relevant to anti racism and intersectional stuff.
And it's just great. Cause it's like, uh, it's a place where I put all the content and it's, I really think that being in community, talking about these things is so important. And I think that we live in such a polite society that often doesn't talk about. These things, particularly in cross racial spaces and effective ways.
And I love that people have been in there for years. And then when new people come in, they just fit right in. And it doesn't mean that you have to believe one thing. You just have to be committed to exploring yourself as a racial being and working towards, you know, the betterment of all of our society.
[00:38:14] Whitney Owens: Yeah,
[00:38:17] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: that's great.
[00:38:18] Whitney Owens: And then you have a literacy quiz. That's yes. Yeah.
[00:38:22] Dr. Nathalie Edmond: Racial literacy quiz, which is really, it's about 20 questions. I'm like really helping people like discern like where they are already strong and where they're growing edges. And I think what people find is like, you know, they might understand theory, but how are they implementing it in their daily life and how consistently are they implementing it?
And. When you think about all the ways we can be racially literate and fluent and agile and agile people are surprised. I think it's just a great self reflection which is the beginning of the journey.
[00:38:55] Whitney Owens: Well this has been so insightful and helpful and I know that it's going to be a great episode when it airs so I appreciate you taking the time to be with us today and I hope that people jump, jump up and go get your book because it sounds really great.
Thanks so much, Whitney.
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[00:39:27] Whitney Owens: Podcast. Special thanks to Marty Altman for the music in this podcast. The wise practice podcast is part of the site craft podcast network, a collaboration of independent podcasters focused on helping people live more meaningful and productive lives to learn more about the other amazing podcasts in the network head on over to site craft network dot com.
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