WP193 | How to Know if Your Marketing is Working with Neal Samudre
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Are you investing in marketing for your therapy practice but wondering if it’s actually working?
In this episode of the Wise Practice Podcast, I’m joined again by Neal Samudre, founder of Sambright, to talk about what practice owners really need to know before they decide to start, stop, or change their marketing strategy.
We talk about why marketing is not a quick fix, how long you should give SEO or Google Ads before making decisions, and why practice owners need to understand their data instead of making choices out of fear or frustration. Neal breaks down the key numbers to watch, how to establish a baseline, and why feedback between you and your marketing partner matters so much.
We also talk about the cost of inaction. Because if people in your community cannot find your practice, they cannot get the help they need.
In this episode, we cover:
➡️ How to know if your marketing is working
➡️ Why you need an experimental mindset with marketing
➡️ How long to stick with SEO or Google Ads
➡️ What feedback to give your marketing partner
➡️ Why practice owners need to track inquiries and conversions
➡️ The difference between marketing problems and intake problems
➡️ Why outsourcing SEO and Google Ads can be better than hiring in-house
➡️ The cost of doing nothing in your practice growth
If you are a Christian practice owner who wants to grow wisely, make better marketing decisions, and understand what your data is actually telling you, this conversation is for you.
Marketing Is Not a Quick Fix
One of the biggest takeaways from this conversation is that marketing takes time. It is not a magic wand, and it is not something you try for 30 days and then quit when the phone doesn’t immediately start ringing.
Neal encouraged practice owners to think of marketing as an experiment. You try something, track the results, give it time, and then make wise decisions based on the data.
Know Your Numbers
Before you can know if your marketing is working, you need to know your baseline.
How many inquiries are you getting now? How many of those people are scheduling? Where are those calls coming from? What is your conversion rate?
Those numbers matter because sometimes marketing is working, but your intake process is the problem. You may be getting calls, but if people are not scheduling, that tells you something different than “my marketing isn’t working.”
Don’t Make Decisions Out of Fear
I loved this part of the conversation because I see it all the time. Practice owners get nervous, frustrated, or overwhelmed, and they want to cancel everything. But if you cannot point to the data, you may be making a decision out of fear instead of wisdom.
And y’all, we want to make wise decisions.
That means looking at the numbers, asking good questions, giving your marketing partner feedback, and understanding what is actually happening in your practice.
The Cost of Doing Nothing
Neal said something that really stuck with me: the cost of inaction can be more expensive than the cost of investing.
If people in your community cannot find your practice, they cannot get the help they need. And for faith-based practice owners, that matters deeply.
Your practice has good work to do in the world. So don’t hide from the numbers. Learn them, track them, and use them to grow wisely.
Listen to the full episode to learn what KPIs to track, how long to give your marketing strategy, and how to know if your marketing dollars are actually working.
Show Sponsor Aria
This episode is brought to you by Aria, the practice automation platform.
You did the work. You billed for it. But did you actually collect it?
If you take insurance, the gap between the care you delivered and what actually lands in the bank can be wider than you think. Aria’s reporting shows you that gap in plain numbers: what you charged, what you collected, and what’s still sitting unpaid.
No more wondering where it went.
Right now, Aria is giving the Wise Practice community a free first month of reporting, no contract. It works with SimplePractice, TherapyNotes, and other common EHRs, with more on the way.
See where your money’s going at https://www.heyaria.com/wise.
Meet Neal Samudre
Neal Samudre is the founder of Sambright, a digital marketing firm that helps health and wellness practices get more qualified inquiries with Google Ads, SEO, and AI search. He is also a former CMO, the author of the book "Start From Joy," and is a regular speaker on joy and personal development. He lives with his wife and children in Nashville, TN.
Neal’s Resources
FREEBIE: Is Your Marketing Actually Working?
Links and Resources
Learn More about Wise Practice Consulting
Connect with Wise Practice on Instagram
Connect with Whitney Owens on Facebook
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[00:00:00] Whitney Owens: This episode is brought to you by Aria. You did the work. You billed for the therapy sessions, but did you actually collect the money? If you take insurance, that gap between the care you deliver and what actually lands in your bank account can be wider than you think. Aria's reporting shows that gap in plain numbers, what you charged, what you collected, and what's still sitting unpaid.
No more wondering where the money's going, because right now Aria is giving Wise Practice listeners a free month of reporting, no contract needed. It works with many EHRs such as Simple Practice, TherapyNotes, and more. To see where your money's going, I want you to head to heyaria.com/wise. That's H-E-Y-A-R-I-A.com/wise
[00:00:50] Jingle: Hi, I'm Whitney Owens. I'm a group practice owner and
[00:00:53] Whitney Owens: faith-based practice consultant, and I'm here to tell you that you can have it all. Wanna grow your practice? Wanna grow your faith? Wanna enjoy your life outside of work? You've come to the right place. Each week on the Wise Practice podcast, I will give you the action steps to have a successful faith-based practice while also having a good time.
Now let's get started
[00:01:16] Jingle: Well, she grows your practice. She don't play. She does business with a twist of faith. It's Whitney Owens and the Wise Practice podcast. Whitney Owens and the Wise Practice podcast
[00:01:34] Whitney Owens: Hello friends, and welcome back to the Wise Practice Podcast. Whitney Owens here. I'm so glad that you're here. Absolutely love being with you on the show and bringing you action-packed episodes that really bring those practical skills and tips and full of information. And so today is so much fun and so helpful 'cause you're gonna hear from Neil Samudre, who is a marketing expert.
He has got years and years of marketing experience in all kinds of settings, and then most recently has specialized in working with practice owners, honestly 'cause his wife is also a pr- a group practice owner and that kinda led him down that, that track and he's just continued to grow a business that specializes in how to market effectively to you, for you, so that you don't have to do it.
So the biggest question I've been getting lately from practice owners is how do I know where to spend my time and my money with my marketing, and how do I know if it's actually working? Neil and I have a very direct and honest conversation about that, so you're hearing from my side as the practice owner, his side as the marketing expert.
You're gonna love it. But before we jump in, I want to remind you about the Wise Practice Summit, which is this October 8th through the 10th in Nashville, Tennessee. From what I know, this is the only conference for faith-based practice owners looking at business strategy. So we answer the questions from anyone who's just kinda seeking out, getting to know what does it mean to start a private practice, all the way to seven-figure practices, everything in between.
We're gonna cover topics such as marketing your practice, how to incorporate your faith, how do you use clinical skills, how do you serve local schools to be able to bring in more clients into your practice, uh, how do you streamline and automate your practice so you're not so overwhelmed, and I actually am gonna be talking about what does it mean to bring presence into the room with our clients, with ourselves, the Holy Spirit's involvement, because who we are impacts the way we do this work and it impacts how we grow.
And the thing I love about in-person conferences are the amazing relationships that you make. Neil is a testament to that. Two years ago, he applied to speak at the Wise Practice Summit. I did a call with him, loved him. We've been friends ever since. And not only that, but we're, we partner with one another in business.
I've heard so many people tell me the people they meet at this conference they partner with later, they grow something beautiful together. So I wanna encourage you, if you're looking to connect with other Christian practice owners, if you wanna grow your practice, if you want to make big moves, meet us in Nashville this October for the Wise Practice Summit.
Head to wisepracticeconsulting.com. You can get your tickets there. You can check the show notes. If you have questions, you're not really sure, email me. Would love to answer those. It's whitney@wisepracticeconsulting.com. And to tell you the truth, I'd love to meet you. So it's always really cool to meet people that listen to the podcast, a part of the community, and so I would appreciate meeting you as well.
And so we're gonna jump into today's episode. I believe it's 193 where I'm interviewing Neil Samudre. We're gonna talk about knowing if those marketing dollars are actually working in your private practice I'm here to give you an amazing freebie to help you understand your KPIs in your marketing. As we go through the episode, Neil brings so much great information.
I was like, "We've got to capture that on a sheet for our audience." So make sure that you check out the show notes so you can grab your freebie with the KPIs to understand marketing in your practice. We walk you through what to track, what we talked about in the episode, 'cause we wanna make sure that you feel informed in your marketing decisions.
Thank you for listening to the show
Welcome, Neil, to the Wise Practice Podcast, and I'm so excited to have you here. And you are the founder of what used to be Practice At Scale, now Sambright. Oh, yeah. And it's a firm that helps practice owners offload their practice growth and the done-for-you-marketing operational services. So I had Neil back in episode 143 on five pitfalls to bootstrapping, and so you have been introduced to the community before, and you have such experience in marketing.
I could go on and on about your past before you even started your own business for therapists. And that, the other thing I love about you, Neil... Well, I could say so many things I love about you, but I think you have a unique ability to do this work, 'cause your wife is also a therapist. So you've got, you've got the marketing hat, you understand the therapist hat, and you love God.
So you're a Christian as well, so it's like we're bringing it all together here.
[00:06:10] Neal Samudre: There you go. Wow. I love being a repeat guest on the Wise Practice Podcast. I'm just honored to be here and honored to share what I know.
[00:06:23] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Well, we've got some good stuff. So many of you, if you know me, you've heard Neil f- about Neil for a while.
Um, and we met at the Wise Practice Summit '24 when he filled out an application to speak, and when I got his stuff, I was like, man, he's got good stuff here. And so we did a quick Zoom call, 'cause I wanna make sure, you know, these people are legit that are gonna get on stage, and I was like, man, this guy's got it together, and we've been friends ever since.
[00:06:46] Neal Samudre: Ah, good times.
[00:06:47] Whitney Owens: Yep, and we'll be getting together again at this summit, um, in Nashville. So I'm really looking forward- Coming
[00:06:52] Neal Samudre: to my hometown. That's right. See, I'm from Nashville.
[00:06:55] Whitney Owens: That's right. That's great. Well, um, okay, but let's jump into this, because this is what practice owners are asking me all the time, and now you're finally gonna give us the magical answers.
[00:07:06] Neal Samudre: Awesome.
[00:07:06] Whitney Owens: Okay. So practice owners are always wanting to know if their marketing is working. And we have no idea. You're, you're the expert, so you're on this other end with all this knowledge, understanding. You know how to look at softwares and figure it all out. And we're over here going, "Here's my money.
Get me some clients." That's pretty much where our mind is at.
[00:07:34] Neal Samudre: Yeah. I love talking about this 'cause I feel like a lot of practice owners ask me about this, so it's like, "How do I know... How can I interpret this data you're giving me?" You see, I have a tendency of getting really nerdy with my clients, and I'm like, "Here's all this data.
Here's, like, this giant comprehensive report." And they're like, "What does this mean?" And then I give them the executive summary. I'm like, "Hey, your marketing is working. Keep at it." And like, "Okay, great." Um, but yeah, let's talk about this. Where do you wanna start? There's so many places to start.
[00:08:07] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Well, I guess the first maybe is what it's like for someone when they're thinking about investing in marketing.
Maybe it's kinda some of that mindset stuff to go at first because I think that's really important. It's not a quick fix.
[00:08:23] Neal Samudre: Not at
[00:08:23] Whitney Owens: all. Everything worth it-
[00:08:25] Neal Samudre: Yeah. And I think that's the biggest, one of the biggest mindset pieces you have to have going in to, uh, when you're about to invest in marketing, is that there's no magic bullet.
There's no civil bur- bullet, whatever. Yeah. There's no, like, magic wand that's gonna solve all of your marketing problems. It's not like you're gonna invest in an agency or a consultant, and then they're going to magically bring in all the inquiries that you've wanted in the ne- within the next 30, 60 days.
That's true. Like, we have to right-size our expectations before going in, right? Mm-hmm. And at the end of the day, I think we all have to adopt an experimentive mindset, or experimental mindset.
[00:09:07] Whitney Owens: Mm.
[00:09:08] Neal Samudre: Meaning, let's experiment with this. Let's try this out, and if it doesn't work in, let's say six months, then we can leave.
But if you never try, you never know.
[00:09:22] Whitney Owens: Uh-huh.
[00:09:23] Neal Samudre: So you have to have an experimental mindset going in. I remember, um, back in the day, I used to work with a guy by the name of Michael Hyatt. He's a big business coach, influencer, and I was on his marketing team. And one of the things that he really baked into our company culture was having an experimental mindset.
That experimental mindset is just about, "Hey, let's try this out. Like, we don't know the answers. We don't know where it'll lead. But let's try it out so that we have more data on the other side." Mm-hmm. "If it didn't work out, it didn't work out." And I think that's just so important for when we speak about the mindset piece for practice owners to have going into marketing.
Because if you never try, you never know. And there are just way too many practice owners I talk to who they're afraid to make the leap, right? Yes. They're afraid to make the investment because they wanna know, like, where they're gonna land before they take the leap. And you're not gonna know if you never make the leap.
So we have to have that experimental mindset to say, "Hey, I'm gonna try this out as an experiment for the next 90, 180 days. If it doesn't work out, then I am smarter and wiser on the other side."
[00:10:49] Whitney Owens: Yes.
[00:10:51] Neal Samudre: Yeah. So I think we need to start there. Mm. That's the mindset going in.
[00:10:58] Whitney Owens: I really appreciate that. And it's fun.
Yeah. I know it's scary for people, but it is kinda fun. I mean, it's fun to look at something and be like, "Did this work? Did it not work? What do I need? What does my practice need? What is it like in my community at the same time?" So yeah, I think, um, I really appreciated that you kinda said something about a timeframe a little bit there.
Like, how, how long should we be looking at something before we make decisions about starting or stopping or pivoting?
[00:11:28] Neal Samudre: First off, you don't quit too soon. Like, y- a practice that stops investing in marketing after 60 days, way too soon, right? You wanna be able to commit to it. Now, the right timeframe kinda depends on the data, right?
So if they're investing in SEO, SEO can take time, but it can also take off right away depending on the data and the strategy. So I would, if it was SEO, I would stick to it for six months. For Google Ads, three months should be totally fine to be able to, like, produce a return. But even after that, I would stick with it and keep optimizing.
The thing that I would do, though, is whatever marketing par- partner you're working with, give them feedback. Give them feedback as to what you're seeing on your end. Like, "Hey, I've noticed that these type of calls are coming in," or, "Hey, like, we're getting a lot of people who aren't following through on the process and booking that first appointment or showing to the first appointment."
Like, the more data your marketing partner has, the more they can optimize and get closer to where you need to be. Like, I think a lot of people, when they invest in marketing, think that they can, um, just kinda set it and forget it, and they can, like, set up one campaign. That one campaign is gonna, like, run for forever, you know?
Uh, and give them the results. And it's like, no, this is a dual relationship back and forth. So you need the feedback, or you need to give your marketing partner the feedback so that they can take that and optimize, and that's how you can create lasting results with your marketing.
[00:13:29] Whitney Owens: I'm laughing. I'm thinking about, okay, so what we're saying here is somebody invests in their marketing, and they don't wanna have to do the work to figure out if it's working or not.
[00:13:40] Neal Samudre: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:41] Whitney Owens: You know? And then they don't take the time to get feedback, and then they get mad when they don't get the results. Yep.
[00:13:46] Neal Samudre: Yep.
[00:13:47] Whitney Owens: Right? I, I think you're making such a vital point is that practice owners have got to watch their data, figure out what's working and what's not. And obviously I use Sambright for my Google ads, and that has been...
First of all, one thing is you get back to me so fast. If I have a concern about something, and I am a hawk at watching my stuff, probably more than most people. Um, and so then when I'm like, "Hey, what about this, what about this?" You're like, boom, fixing it. So the, the m- the most recent thing, which again, our bjar- it's probably really not jargon, it's probably that I'm just a busy practice owner and I read something and I didn't take enough time to read it really well.
But we, uh, you, you had written in an email, oh, we got rid of your branding, branding verbiage, Ryan, on the Google ad? Was that what it was?
[00:14:35] Neal Samudre: Brand, like, um, branded search terms- Okay ... meaning people who are entering in Water's Edge Counseling into Google, uh, your practice shows up for your Google ads.
[00:14:49] Whitney Owens: There you go.
Yeah. So you had said that, but I didn't know what that meant. And then I came back and was like, hey, I see some of these old calls are current clients calling, 'cause we're watching our data on our end. 'Cause the only thing that marketing companies can see is the marketing side. You can only see how many clicks are happening and what's going on, and you can give me that data, but there's no way you can see did we actually answer the phone, or you can kinda see that.
But, like, we can see did we answer, did we follow up well, did we have the service they were looking for? But one thing that was really helpful was res- realizing that, hey, we have some current clients calling, so they're probably putting in those brand terms. So that feedback allowed us to improve the ad- So that we can run with it
[00:15:34] Neal Samudre: Absolutely.
Yeah, and this, uh, begs the question of like, well, what feedback should I give my marketing partner? Well, you should give your marketing partner, like, what type of clients or what type of calls you're getting. If they are a ton of insurance-based calls and your private practice, like, give that feedback, right?
Mm-hmm. If it's, like, a ton of people asking for Medicaid, give that feedback. If you're noticing that a lot of calls are coming after hours, give that feedback because then your marketing partner could be like, "All right. Well, let's just, like, not show the ad during these hours." Or if it's, like, current clients that are calling in from the ads, let's exclude branded search terms.
There are so many things and optimizations that could be made, but your marketing partner can't do that without the feedback. And so there's a lot of practice owners who they don't wanna step on toes, they're nice. But if they don't speak up, right? If they don't give feedback, then their marketing can never succeed.
Mm. And then the practice owner just gets bitter or resentful, and then they end up canceling or moving on purely out of resentment ver- when they should have given the feedback, right? Mm. This is how it works in any organization with any employee, too. It's like you can't, um, expect people to succeed without feedback.
Uh, and so we love when our clients have great communication with us, when they message in, and we do prioritize that fast response. Um, we just love getting back to them 'cause we, we wanna reward when people give us feedback.
[00:17:34] Whitney Owens: Yep. That's good.
[00:17:36] Neal Samudre: Yeah.
[00:17:37] Whitney Owens: So let's go into, uh, let's say a practice owner is like, "How do I know if it's actually working?
Okay, we've done this experiment. How do I know if it's worth the amount of money I'm putting into it?"
[00:17:51] Neal Samudre: First off, data. Like, you touched on this earlier- If you're gonna invest in something, you do have to be looking at your data. And at the beginning, you have to establish a baseline. And, you know, whenever we are bringing on a new client or whenever we're on a call with a prospect, we're asking the questions to establish what the baseline is.
Like, how many inquiries do you have coming in? Mm-hmm. Uh, it's, we have 60 inquiries coming in per month, or 24, right? Like, before you invest in marketing You should be doing the work to understand what your baseline is. So even before you reach out and start searching for a marketing partner, start tracking your data to understand, like, okay, like, this is how many inquiries we're getting per month, and this is...
And you could get a little more granular and think about, like, okay, this is what our organic search traffic is, you know, stuff from, like, Google Analytics. Uh, you could get real nerdy like that. But, uh, I tend to stick high level of like, hey, how many calls am I getting? How many am I closing? Like, how many inquiries am I getting?
Where are they coming from primarily? And what's my conversion rate? You should be able to establish the baseline, then you look for a partner, and the partner can take that baseline and see how they can improve it. So one of the things that we do when we're on a conversation with a prospect, we do a first call where we understand everything about their practice, and then on a second call we do, like, a deep dive comprehensive report where we take the data that they've given us from the first call and s- build a plan of action of how we can get them to their desired inquiry number, right?
And we'll break down, like, SEO traffic. Like, here's the monthly search volume. If your website converts at an average percentage, like, here's how many inquiries you can expect once you start ranking for these keywords. That sort of stuff, right? But you can't really understand projections unless you understand the baseline, right?
Like, no one can give you good projections unless the practice owner establishes the baseline. So first step, establish the baseline. How many inquiries you're getting, uh, what's your conversion rate, et cetera. But from there,
[00:20:41] Whitney Owens: like- I wanna point something out real quick on this part before we move on- Yeah.
Yeah ... that's so important. You have got to know the time of year.
[00:20:49] Neal Samudre: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:50] Whitney Owens: Right? Because-
[00:20:51] Neal Samudre: Absolutely ...
[00:20:51] Whitney Owens: you don't wanna compare July to March, right? Well, we were getting 30 inquiries in March, and then I hired this company, and now it's July and I only got 25. That actually might be good. You need to compare time of year, so going back to July last year, right?
Mm-hmm. Instead of comparing it to one of our busy months. And the other thing that I like to think about is, okay, well, if I compare March last year and March this year, I know that I've grown by 20%. So if I hire Mar- if I can, I can make the assumption that this July- I will have 20% more inquiries than I did last July.
That's like my baseline, right? But if I hire a company, I should expect it to be a little bit more than that. So it's like thinking about some of those factors that I think people don't think about because they don't understand. And I'm curious with you, I totally like jumped in here. I got too excited.
Yes. Uh, I think I'm noticing also, and, and you're probably noticing this, and what do we do about it is in general, people's inquiries are down. So I think they're hiring companies and it is actually helping them because where would they be without it?
[00:22:02] Neal Samudre: Exactly.
[00:22:03] Whitney Owens: But they think that it's not working, but that's 'cause everyone's inquiries are down.
[00:22:09] Neal Samudre: Bingo. That was actually what I was about to say. Oh,
[00:22:11] Whitney Owens: okay. Okay.
[00:22:12] Neal Samudre: Like following up on you. So this kind of goes back to the mindset piece where yes, it's helpful to look at this July compared to last July, but you also have to factor in that the online landscape last July, completely different than the online landscape of this July.
100%. And you get even worse data or like, th- that's even more skewed if you compare it to July like two years ago, because like AI search was less of a thing. Like there were way less features in the search engine that were being promoted. Google's algorithm changes all the time, and so you can't say that, "Okay, last year I was at 20 inquiries.
This July I should be at 65." Right? You know, this, it, that doesn't really correlate well. You have to like take into account that okay, there are, were a lot of changes that happened in the online landscape. Uh, you might have been showing up number one in the map for a search term a year ago, right? And so you were getting a lot of inquiries from that cer- from your practice showing number one in Google Maps.
But Google's algorithm might have changed that search term to then prioritize AI search above Google Maps. And so you could be getting less inquiries a year later and that's not because of anything that a like marketing agency or whatever is doing, it's just things are changing really fast. And so I Like wouldn't say that, "Okay, we got this amount last year, and so we should expect an exponential amount this year because we're investing in a marketing company."
It's like you have to do ... You have to also factor in changes. But one of the things I love about like working with a marketing partner is that a marketing partner understands the changes, right? Uh-huh. They understand the fluctuations, um, more so than others. This kind of also leads into another rabbit trail that I'm gonna go down, but a lot of practice owners believe that they will solve their problems by hiring an in-house marketer versus an agency.
And I'm actually against this because, like I, I used to be a CMO, meaning chief marketing officer, for like eight-figure brands, and we, we were scaling a ton. But even when I was doing all of this, I still hired an advertising agency to run our ads versus hiring an in-house ads person. Why? Because people, like agencies and those marketing partners, they have more expertise and data because they do advertising for a ton of different clients across a ton of different verticals- Yeah
and there's something to be leveraged there versus if you hire an in-house marketer to like do your ads and do everything, first off, that's a unicorn. But they might have run ads for a company like two years ago, and that's their experience. And they don't have the relevant experience to be running ads for a practice today because so much has changed between the last time that they ran ads versus like an agency or a marketing partner is always running ads.
So if you're thinking, if you're a practice owner and you're listening to this and you're thinking, "Well, I just need to hire an in-house person who can do my SEO and my ads," it could work. It could work. I'm not saying it doesn't. But you have to look at when was the last time that they did SEO and a- ads, you know?
Yeah. Like when was the most recent time? 'Cause so much has changed in the landscape. L- That's just where we're at.
[00:26:41] Whitney Owens: If anyone was watching the YouTube, when you started saying it and you were like hiring someone in-house, I was like, "No," like, "Don't do it." You know? So I, I am so on board with you. In fact, I did that for twice.
I had two in-house people, and I thought it was going good. We were getting inquiries. But then when I made that transition and hired some ex- more experts, I ended up finding out my website was so messed up.
[00:27:09] Neal Samudre: Yep.
[00:27:10] Whitney Owens: And I was like, all these 404... So not only was this marketing person messing up my website, but in calling themselves an SEO expert, but boy, when I got somebody in there that really fixed it all, it just started skyrocketing even more.
And I was like, "Dang, these people told me they knew what they were doing, but I guess they really didn't," and it was cheaper- Yeah ... so I kept doing it thinking I was winning.
[00:27:33] Neal Samudre: Now here's my caveat to this Ooh. In our company, we teach the Sam Wright Growth System, which is a marketing funnel. So if you're watching this on YouTube, I'm forming a funnel with my...
Or if you're listening to this, I'm forming a funnel with my hands. It's like an upside down pyramid. But at the top of the pyramid, this is how people enter into the funnel, right? And it's how people enter into your ecosystem. And then the middle of the funnel is how you deepen your relationship with people, and then bottom of the funnel is how they convert.
It's when they have the highest intent and they are looking for services. And so my rule of thumb is that you always outsource the bottom of the funnel activities. So what, what are the activities at the bottom of the funnel? SEO, Google Ads, AI search. The people who are on those platforms are... They have the highest intent.
They're going into Google searching anxiety therapist- Exactly ... for my kid, right? That's where you want the experts. But the middle of the funnel is email marketing, social media. Those are the activities you're doing to deepen a relationship with someone in your atmosphere, in your ecosystem. That could be an in-house person.
And then the top of the funnel is community partnerships, like referrals, outreach. That could be an in-house hire. But my rule of thumb is the bottom of the funnel, SEO, Google Ads, you need experts because the experts are the ones who are dealing, who know with, uh, all the algorithm changes. They know how to position your practice on page one.
They know what levers to pull because they're constantly doing it. You can't hire an in-house person and expect them to own the bottom of the funnel because so much is changing at a rapid pace that they're not gonna have the expertise to weather that and bring you the results.
[00:29:41] Whitney Owens: Yeah.
[00:29:42] Neal Samudre: Like the name of the game is adaptability, and so you need experts who can adapt.
Mm. And if you have people in your corner who can adapt to the changes, you're set. You can trust them, right? But that adaptability piece, it's, uh, you really need that today.
[00:30:03] Whitney Owens: Yeah. All right. Let's go, let's go back a little. And I love that we did that. That was really good. Is there anything else that practice centers should be looking for to know if their marketing is working?
[00:30:13] Neal Samudre: You have to look for- When you establish the baseline, right? And once you talk with the marketing partner, they should give you the strategy of like, "Okay, here's what I recommend. Like, SEO should be number one of your strategy, and Google Ads should be part of your strategy." For... You have to poke holes in the strategy.
Meaning, if you have a marketing partner or an agency that's telling you that Google Ads only will solve all of your problems, that probably is not gonna solve all your problems, right? Especially if you're a private pay practice. If you're a private pay practice, you kinda need your hands in everything.
Be honest. You, you kinda need to be on top of your marketing, which means having your hands in every single marketing system that's kind of available. With insurance-based practices, you can double down, but you also kinda wanna choose a strategy that makes sense for your area. So like, if a marketing partner does research and says you can actually own via Google Ads because your practice is located in a rural area where you don't have these, like, big mental health tech companies bidding, outbidding you, so you can own Google Ads, like, that should be part of your strategy, right?
Like, take the data they give you and poke holes in the strategy. But once you have a strategy, the next step is figuring out what KPIs to measure. KPI stands for key performance indicators. It are the data points that help you know that things are improving. Like for SEO, for example, KPIs you could look at, how much traffic comes to your website from organic search?
[00:32:06] Whitney Owens: Yeah.
[00:32:06] Neal Samudre: That's one KPI. Another KPI could be where do you rank for your top keywords? Another big KPI if you're trying to, um- Really rank for local SEO is what is my, for these keywords that I want my practice to rank for, what does the map scan look like? And what I mean by map scan is there are tools out there that can scan where your practice, uh, ranks in Google Maps for certain keywords, and you want as many as possible points to be in the top three spots, meaning like ranked number one, two, or three.
And if you see that the map is becoming more green, meaning like the top three spots versus like red, you're golden. Like those are key SEO KPIs that I would be measuring because those are the KPIs that, uh, translate to conversions. Like I'm not the type of person that says, "Hey, if you're gonna invest in SEO or ads, like measure every KPI, like measure every impression or click or bounce rate."
Like, I am a busy person. A lot of practice owners are busy. I look at my goal. My goal is to get calls. My goal is to get inquiries. And then I look at the KPIs that are most, that are closest attached to that. So organic search traffic, rankings for decision-based keywords, which means keywords that, uh, lead to a conversion-
[00:34:00] Whitney Owens: Mm-hmm
[00:34:01] Neal Samudre: versus like someone just looking for information And map scans, because that shows me, like if you cover most of the real estate in the map and you're like in one of those top three spots, you're gonna get a lot of calls from that, right? So I look at the KPIs that are most closely aligned with my goal, and I would only do like three to five KPIs.
And I would look at that like month to month. And I say month to month because, like with SEO for example, you... The way you tell that SEO is working is from more of a 30-day trend versus a like week-to-week trend. Mm-hmm. Like we have a lot of clients that wanna know like their data week to week, and so we give them updates every week.
But you can't actually see if like your SEO is working like week to week. You have to like zoom out a bit and look at like 30-day trends.
[00:35:03] Whitney Owens: Yes, it's always weird. Um,
[00:35:05] Neal Samudre: yeah. And so what you could do is you can establish a cadence where you're doing monthly business reviews. First week of the month, last week of the month, doesn't matter, but you're actually looking at those KPIs.
Um, and one of the things that we are doing now is like we have these comprehensive breakdown reports which give like an executive summary of the month and everything we've done and all the wins. Also shows like how the data impacts what we're gonna do in the next month. But with that report, like you can look at it and you can be like, "Okay, here are my KPIs right here."
Uh, but you wanna look at it at least once a month. But so to recap, you establish the baseline, you poke holes in the strategy that the marketing partner gives you, and then you establish the KPIs that you wanna track to see if it's working, and then you wanna commit to it, right? 'Cause you are gonna have month-to-month ebbs and flows.
Mm-hmm. You are gonna have seasonality. Mm-hmm. But you wanna unders-- you wanna zoom out and understand the trend. You don't wanna just, like, stay zoomed in to where this, it's at this week. You wanna zoom out and understand that like, okay, it's trending well.
[00:36:38] Whitney Owens: Yeah.
[00:36:38] Neal Samudre: Trending really well. Um, but that's how you really know it's working.
It is being more data-focused, but it, it also is about having the right mindset going in and right-sizing your expectations.
[00:36:58] Jingle: Yeah. Where
[00:36:58] Neal Samudre: no, no marketing partner is gonna solve all your problems. Like, no agency is gonna solve every problem. No agency is perfect, or no marketing partner is perfect. But you wanna have a relationship of trust, right?
Yeah. Where, okay, I trust that this is going well, and, like, I can see the data. But the thing is you don't wanna You don't wanna end a marketing partner relationship if you can't point to the data.
[00:37:32] Whitney Owens: Yes.
[00:37:33] Neal Samudre: You know? Because that's an emotional decision, and I'm not saying, like, you can't make emotional decisions.
Like, I'm saying more like, I just see the cycle that a lot of practice owners get into where they become resentful towards other partners, even like in-house hires, uh, because they feel like they are not getting the results that they were promised or what they needed. And but then at the end of the day, they can't point to actual data, right?
Mm-hmm. And so that is a decision that is made out of fear or just emotional resentment. And y- you don't wanna make a decision out of that.
[00:38:24] Whitney Owens: Yeah.
[00:38:25] Neal Samudre: You should be able to point to data. And if, like if someone wanted to come and end with Sam Wright and, like, pointed to the actual data, I'm, like, happy about that.
I'm like, "Yeah, um, we haven't delivered, so great. Like, you're good. Like, let's end," you know? I'm 100% happy with that. I mean, I'm not happy when if a person leaves, but thankfully we have a really good client retention rate. But I- I just want, I want people to make the right decisions, and make decisions less out of fear and more out of wisdom.
[00:39:09] Whitney Owens: Yeah, 100%. This is so good. You know, as we've been talking, I've been thinking, "What if we created a handout to go with this episode?" You know, because you've given us all this stuff, and there's show notes, but, like, for someone to actually have a PDF they can print out that's like, "These are the KPIs. These are these things," so that they have it when they go in and- And look at their data.
So I think I'm gonna give
[00:39:35] Neal Samudre: that baby- 100%. Yeah Totally. And, like, they can even take that handout and, like, uh, give it to a marketing partner. Like, you don't have to- Oh, that's right. Mm-hmm ... like, work with us at Sam Briley. Like, you can work with anyone. You can take it to your current like marketing partner or agency and be like, "Hey, can you, like, give me these data points?"
[00:39:53] Whitney Owens: Love it. "
[00:39:54] Neal Samudre: Every month, that, that would be awesome." Yeah. Love it. Love that idea.
[00:39:59] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Um, well, I... Our time has been so good. It's been so great. So if somebody wants more information about this, like I'm gonna have Z make something for this show and give her the transcript so we can have that cool PDF, so make sure you check show notes for that.
Um, I wanna share two stories real quick just so that people can see on the therapist side. Mm-hmm. The first one is, and I preach this and you know it, is Google Ads do your work. For example, every week I get my printout. It's like, "Here's how great..." Which it's always how great it's doing, 'cause it is doing great, but to me I'm like, "Okay, well, I've gotta, I gotta pay attention."
So every week we take all the calls, we go in, who's that person calling, you know, did they convert into a client, what were they looking for? Like you said, so I can give feedback on improving the Google Ads. Because, like you said, you never wanna be spending more money than what you're bringing in, right?
Mm-hmm. That doesn't make sense. But there's no way to know that if you're not tracking it. So practice centers have got to be diligent about the tracking, and they can't keep putting their heads in the sands.
[00:41:01] Neal Samudre: Yeah. And I would say this too, is that you don't have to become, like, a data expert overnight, and you don't have to pore over the data daily.
Or, like, really to start out you should have an eye on the data month after month. Like- Yeah ... you can get a little more granular and look at it week to week if you want. Like, that'd be a great step for Google Ads, not really so much for SEO. Right. But you should at least establish the cadence where you're looking at it month to month.
[00:41:35] Whitney Owens: Yeah. Well, and it was when we started doing Google Ads that we started noticing more things about our conversions with intake, and then we started recording calls and that was game-changer and our tr- our conversions have improved. So it was like all that stuff helped along the way. But I don't track that stuff, my intake team does.
I just say, "Here. Here's the information. You create the spreadsheet. You show me the money," and then I go in there once a week and look at what happened and then I give the feedback. The other thing I wanted to share was just a quick story about a practice owner that I worked with, which kind of led to us having this conversation.
'Cause we, Neil and I, jump on calls and talk about the experiences, and I learned, like- What people were telling each of us, right? So I had a practice owner that reached out, and a little bit in my mastermind group where people are saying, "Hey, do we- how do I know if it's working?" And I'm like, "Okay, well, here's some things you could look for," s- things you just mentioned.
Of course, she was like, "I don't really know what that is." I said, "Okay, well, l- why don't we schedule a consult call? Let me get on the computer with you and show you what you need to be looking for."
[00:42:33] Jingle: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:34] Whitney Owens: So we get on the computer, I start showing her what to look for, and we see that her website traction has improved greatly in the past three to six months.
I was like, "This shows us that it's working." Mm-hmm. And she was about to cancel her... She was about to cancel her, uh, partner because she, she didn't think it was working, right? And I'm like, "Let's..." I said, "This is all working, so where's the disconnect here?" And I was like, "Show me your calls." Yep. So we looked at her calls.
And I was like, "Oh my gosh, you're getting lots of inquiries." And then I was like, "How many of these people scheduled?" And it was like sinking, you know, feeling. It was like a 20%... I can't remember exactly. It was a very low conversion rate.
[00:43:21] Neal Samudre: Oh, yikes.
[00:43:22] Whitney Owens: And I was like, "What happened here?" And so then we were able to go back and realize some issues going on in the intake, and the person answering the phones, and the follow-up that was happening.
And I was like, "I- if you were to cancel your marketing right now, all your inquiries would drop, and that 20% of n- the people that have reached out would get even worse. Like, what if we just improve this whole thing?" Anyway, so then we started working on that, and it got better, and now converting better.
But I just think it goes back to the whole idea of you've gotta really know your stuff and what you're looking for.
[00:43:55] Neal Samudre: Absolutely. And can I say one story? Yes, so I remember, like, a couple weeks ago, I was talking with a person who was interested in investing in marketing. Um, and, you know, I go through my process where I reveal, like, all the data, uh, and everything.
And it w- it was a pretty dire scenario to where their practice was pretty invisible on, on Google. But they have these big growth goals that was unrealistic with what the data presented. And so I was really candid and frank, but also in a very gentle way 'cause I'm me. I was like, "Hey, we need to fix a lot of these...
We need to fix a lot of these things to get you showing up on Google because- It, if you have all these goals, those goals can never be met if this is the scenario, right? And ultimately, like they decided no, because it, in, in their mind, like they didn't have the budget to invest, and that's totally fine.
I'm not one of those people that's like, don't, like that shames anyone who like doesn't move forward. But it bummed me out afterwards Because I was like, man, a lot of practice owners don't realize the cost of inaction.
[00:45:34] Whitney Owens: Oh.
[00:45:35] Neal Samudre: They, they think about the cost of investing in a marketing service, but no one's thinking about the cost of inaction.
And the cost of inaction is way more expensive than investing in a marketing company, and that's what I wanna end with. You know, it's like if you do nothing or if you invest in nothing, nothing will change. And it- you can't do the same things and expect different results. Mm-hmm. It just... That's not wise.
That's not wisdom, right? Like, you have to do something because the cost of inaction is getting way more expensive as we go on. Well- I don't mean to say that from a, like, fear standpoint. Like, we just have to know, like, w- we have to measure things with that mindset because the gift of fear is wisdom, and wisdom means investing in new things to achieve radically different results.
[00:46:38] Whitney Owens: You saw the pain in my face as you were talking about it 'cause I, I hear it with practice owners all the time. And I'll do clarity calls, and then they don't wanna move forward. They don't wanna really take action, and it breaks my heart. I'm like, "You could have such a great business."
[00:46:51] Neal Samudre: Absolutely.
[00:46:51] Whitney Owens: At this point, you do such great work in the world, and you're, you're losing that by doing nothing.
[00:46:57] Neal Samudre: Like, it, it kills me when I end those calls 'cause I don't care at the end of the day if people work with us or choose to, like, work with someone else. Like, that's not what matters to me. What matters is that you have built something solid. You have something that's providing so much good and joy in the community, and those types of businesses are the ones that deserve to win.
[00:47:23] Whitney Owens: Yes. And
[00:47:24] Neal Samudre: so that's, like, what is being lost here when you don't invest in marketing is people aren't able to find you. People who need a better life, they can't find you. And so I al- whenever I do those big analysis reports for companies, I always give them to the practices. I'm like, "Hey, even if you don't decide to work with us, take this data and make a wise decision with it."
[00:47:54] Whitney Owens: That's right.
[00:47:54] Neal Samudre: Because people in your community need your service.
[00:47:59] Whitney Owens: Especially Christians. If you're a Christian therapist, the Christian clients want to find you specifically, and if you're not marketing well, they're not gonna find another faith-based therapist and be discouraged.
[00:48:10] Neal Samudre: Oh, yes. Totally.
[00:48:13] Whitney Owens: Um, Neil, we, we totally have to wrap it up, but you know-
I could talk to you all day. Tell us how people can find you, what kind of cool stuff do you wanna share with the audience?
[00:48:22] Neal Samudre: Yeah, so you can find me at sambright.com. It's S-A-M-B-R-I-G-H-T.com. Feel free to book a call if you're a practice that's like, "Man, I wanna invest in marketing," reach out, book a call with us, and I'll dig into the data with you.
I'll get real nerdy, and we can figure out the potential of your practice and where we wanna take this thing. Um, other things I wanna share is that I'm gonna be at the Wise Practice Summit 2026-
[00:49:03] Whitney Owens: Yes ...
[00:49:04] Neal Samudre: in October in Nashville. And if you wanna meet with me and talk with me, find me there. I will be the bald Indian guy with the mustache.
Hard to miss. But yeah, I would love to meet with you, talk with you, and show you around Nashville.
[00:49:22] Whitney Owens: Well, I'm really looking forward to it. And what I love about the summit, obviously all the connections and just, like, the knowledge you get in the sessions, but you get to walk around and actually meet these partners.
And you can talk about each one, and I try to bring a variety of different kinds of services to meet different needs, and so you get to really, like, have that experience without having to, like, schedule all these calls with all these people. You can, like, hit everybody at one time and understand all these amazing services that can make your practice better, and I just love it, and I appreciate you and all your partnership over the years and the way you already serve so many Wise Practice members.
[00:49:58] Neal Samudre: Yes, glad to do it.
[00:50:00] Whitney Owens: Well, thank you, Neil. And, uh, again, um, make sure that y'all check out the show notes, uh, so you can get more information about Neil, and then as well, the... hopefully this PDF we're gonna be creating after the show. We're gonna throw it in there, and it's gonna be great. So thank you again.
[00:50:14] Neal Samudre: Awesome. Thanks, everyone.
[00:50:18] Jingle: So click on follow and leave a review and keep on loving this work we do with Whitney Owens and the Wise Practice Podcast. Whitney Owens and the Wise Practice Podcast
[00:50:36] Whitney Owens: Special thanks to Marty Altman for the music in this podcast. The Wise Practice Podcast is part of the SiteCraft Podcast Network, a collaboration of independent podcasters focused on helping people live more meaningful and productive lives. To learn more about the other amazing podcasts in the network, head on over to sitecraftnetwork.com.
The Wise Practice Podcast represents the opinions of Whitney Owens and her guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only, and the content should not be taken as legal advice. If you have legal questions, please consult an attorney.
